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Story</tle><path class="in-bookmark-fill" d="M20 23.9508L12.5 19.7312L5 23.9508V2.95081H14V3.93211H6V22.1845L12.5 18.5536L19 22.1845V8.83866H20V23.9508Z" fill="black"></path><path class="in-bookmark-stroke" d="M23 3H20V0H19V3H16V4H19V7H20V4H23V3Z" fill="black"></path></svg></div></a></li></ul></div></div></div><div class="GridItem-buujkM eHLzLy grid--em"><div class="SplScreenContentHearLeadWrapper-jYfGAC kBeEbL"><div data-ttid="ContentHearLeadAsset" class="SplScreenContentHearLeBlock-nUOA cwQiEB"><span class="SpanWrapper-umhxW jvZaPI rponsive-asset SplScreenContentHearLe-bGywFh gyNssY"><picture class="RponsiveImagePicture-cWuUZO dUOtEa SplScreenContentHearLe-bGywFh gyNssY rponsive-image"><source media="(max-width: 767px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w, 640w, 960w" siz="100vw"/><source media="(m-width: 768px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w, 640w, 960w, 1280w, 1600w, 1920w, 2240w" siz="100vw"/><img alt="Masha Gsen leang agast a wood table wh a large bookshelf behd them." 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23.9508V2.95081H14V3.93211H6V22.1845L12.5 18.5536L19 22.1845V8.83866H20V23.9508Z"></path><path class="in-bookmark-fill" d="M23 3H20V0H19V3H16V4H19V7H20V4H23V3Z"></path></svg></span><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ ActnBarButtonText-bYXYuh iUEiRd bkefvo gkccfO">Save this story</span></button></div></div></div><div class="LightboxWrapper-dxsWBV hhylRt"><div class="ArticlePageChunksContent-etcMtP imbgVA"><div data-ttid="ArticlePageChunks" class="ArticlePageChunks-fLyCVG lmuXQm"><div class="GridWrapper-cAzTTK eRggVV grid grid-margs grid-ems-0 ArticlePageChunksGrid-hfxa bDFJoo"><div class="GridItem-buujkM kHPPIF grid--em"><div class="BodyWrapper-kufPGa bDyAMU body body__ntaer article__body" data-journey-hook="client-ntent" data-ttid="BodyWrapper"><div class="body__ner-ntaer"><p class="has-dropp has-dropp__lead-standard-headg">The first time I saw Masha Gsen was more than thirty years ago, on the streets of Mosw. This was durg the <a href=">Gorbachev</a> era, the pertroika years, a time of reform and promise. It’s hard to image now. As a reporter for the Washgton <em>Post</em>, I was tryg to keep track of the untls ways which Soviet society was changg. For a long time, spe all the other radil shifts nsumg the untry, discsn of gay rights was largely absent. In those days, public figur would sometim proclaim that homosexualy was a repugnant peculiary of the Wt and did not exist at home. In the late eighti, the official prs clared that H.I.V. was alien to the Soviet Unn and had been created by the U.S. fense tablishment, a bweapons-rearch lab at Fort Detrick, Maryland. But by 1990 or so this, too, began to shift. For me, at least, one of the embodiments of this change was the sight of a termed young journalist and activist at the head of a small gay-rights rally near the Bolshoi Theatre. This was Masha Gsen.</p><p class="paywall">Gsen has been a staff wrer for <em>The New Yorker</em> sce 2017 and is bt known for their wrg on Rsia, human rights, mocracy and thorarianism, and, for the past thirteen months, the <a href=">war Ukrae</a>. Recently, not long after Gsen returned om a reportg trip to Ukrae, I sent them an e-mail potg out some of the bat over the way trans issu are beg vered and discsed. The latt flash pot had been at the New York <em>Tim</em>. I asked Gsen, who intifi as trans and nonbary, how <em>The New Yorker</em> should be thkg about s own verage and approach. The reply led to an terview on <a data-offer-url=" class="external-lk" data-event-click="{"element":"ExternalLk","outgogURL":"" href=" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">The New Yorker Rad Hour</a>.</p><p class="paywall">Gsen was born to a Jewish fay Mosw 1967. The fay moved to the U.S. 1981, and Masha returned to Mosw 1991. I first began readg their work, wh admiratn, the pag of <em>Itogi</em>, a Yelts-era magaze led by two talented liberal edors, Sergei Parkhomenko and <a href=">Masha Lipman</a>. In the years sce, Gsen has published books on Put, the Rsian telligentsia, and many other subjects; their most recent is “<a data-offer-url=" class="external-lk" data-event-click="{"element":"ExternalLk","outgogURL":"" href=" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Survivg Autocracy</a>.” This week, was announced that Gsen won the Blake-Dodd Prize for nonfictn, award by the Amerin Amy of Arts and Letters. In 2013, when <a href=">Vladimir Put</a> tensified his anti-L.G.B.T.Q. rhetoric and threatened measur to take children away om gay parents, Gsen, who has three children, cid to return to the U.S. Our nversatn has been eded for length and clary.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>Masha, to hear many Republins right now, you’d thk that L.G.B.T.Q. rights are somehow as big a threat as the new Cold War, or nuclear war. I spoke wh Michaela Cavangh, a Democratic state senator Nebraska, who is fightg to block a bill that would whhold genr-affirmg re om trans kids, cludg mental-health re. She told me that the Republins wh whom she legislat aren’t that worked up about trans rights, and that the bills are signed to get airtime on Fox News; they’re a kd of directive om the natnal party. That seems like a nvenient argument for a Democrat who don’t want to make too many enemi among her Republin lleagu. What is the motivatn for <a href=">Ron DeSantis</a>, for <a href=">Donald Tmp</a>, for the Republin Party, to make this issue to somethg so enormo?</strong></p><p class="paywall">I thk I probably agree wh the state senator a ltle b, the sense that all the bills are about signallg, and what they’re signallg is the sence of past-oriented polics. It’s a really nvenient signal bee some of the most recent and most rapid social change ncerns L.G.B.T. rights general, and trans rights and trans visibily particular.</p><p class="paywall">All the tocratic polics that we see around the world right now are past-oriented polics. It’s Put’s ll for a return to “the great Rsia” of the past. Note that Put’s war Ukrae go hand hand wh extreme anti-L.G.B.T. rhetoric. In his last speech, he took time to assert that God is male, and that the crazy Europeans and the “Nazi” Ukraians are tryg to make God genr-fluid. I’m not kiddg.</p><div data-attr-viewport-monor="le-recirc" class="le-recirc-wrapper le-recirc-observer-target-1 viewport-monor-anchor"></div><p class="paywall"><strong>Men are men and women are women, and that’s the end of the story.</strong></p><p class="paywall">Right. That simplicy—women are women, men are men. There’s social and fancial stabily. Where relevant, there’s whens. There’s a fortable and predictable future. That’s a msage that says, We’re gog to return you to a time when thgs weren’t sry, when thgs didn’t make you unfortable, when you didn’t fear that your kid was gog to e home om school and tell you that they’re trans. Andrew Solomon has wrten betifully about this—about the anxiety nnected wh havg children whose inty is pletely different om yours.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>Meang how upsettg that difference is and the appeal of that difference not happeng?</strong></p><div><div class="ConsumerMarketgUnThemedWrapper-iUTMTf jssHut nsumer-marketg-un nsumer-marketg-un--article-mid-ntent" role="prentatn" aria-hidn="te"><div class="nsumer-marketg-un__slot nsumer-marketg-un__slot--article-mid-ntent nsumer-marketg-un__slot---ntent"></div><div class="journey-un"></div></div></div><p class="paywall">Right. Promisg to take that fear and anxiety away is tly powerful.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>I thk many people know you om your verage of Rsia, and now the war Ukrae. The first time I ever met you, or even saw you, was 1991. You were leadg, or part of, a gay-rights monstratn Mosw. You’re a cizen of both Rsia and the Uned Stat, and this movement has been a big part of your life. But I thought maybe we’d go back even further time, for you to tell me about your own journey, about genr, about sexualy, and why this has bee such a big part of your life, as well as your journalism and your wrg.</strong></p><p class="paywall">Profsnally, I started out gay and lbian journalism, as was known, the mid-eighti. At the time, was obv that, if somebody was dog gay and lbian journalism, they were at least queer. Growg up, I was most fely trans-intified, except I didn’t have words for .</p><div class="Contaer-bkChBi byNLHx"></div><p class="paywall"><strong>We’re talkg how old, then?</strong></p><p class="paywall">Five? Six? I remember, at the age of five, gog to sleep my <em>dyetski sad</em>, my Rsian prchool, and hopg that I would wake up a boy. A real boy. I had people addrs me by a boy’s name. My parents, fortunately, were credibly game. They were totally fe wh .</p><div data-attr-viewport-monor="le-recirc" class="le-recirc-wrapper le-recirc-observer-target-2 viewport-monor-anchor"></div><p class="paywall"><strong>Bee they were so broad-md, or bee they jt thought was a passg thg?</strong></p><p class="paywall">I thk bee they’re pretty broad-md. I remember that the late seventi—so I would’ve been ten or eleven years old—they read a Polish magaze about trans—“transsexual” at that pot—surgery, and told me about . And I said, “Oh, I’m gog to have an operatn when I grow up.” And they said, “That’s fe.” So that was kd of the al. And then I went through puberty and I uld no longer live as a boy so clearly. Then I was a lbian for many, many years, or more likely queer. But I’ve always thought of myself as havg more of a genr inty than a sexual orientatn.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>What do that mean?</strong></p><p class="paywall">We were not supposed to talk like this the eighti and neti. We were supposed to be very clear about sexual orientatn beg separate om genr, and that, if you were lbian, that didn’t mean you wanted to be a man. In fact, for a lot of people, ’s more plited than that. It’s a ltle b of this and a ltle b of that. I’ve always been attracted to both men and women, but I’ve always been very clearly genr nonnformg.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>One of the thgs that beme part of the language at a certa perd of time was the followg sentence: “Genr is a nstct.” I thk most people over the centuri thought of genr as somethg provid by blogy. What is the orig of the notn of genr as a nstct?</strong></p><p class="paywall"><a href=">Judh Butler</a>, who certaly did not vent the phrase “genr as a nstct” but did a lot to popularize that ia, and an ia of genr as performance, which I thk is even more relevant to what we’re talkg about—she said fairly recently—or, I’m sorry, <em>they</em> said fairly recently— an terview that—</p><p class="paywall"><strong>I thk ’ll be hearteng for some to know that you ma this mistake. We’re leavg !</strong></p><p class="paywall">[<em>Lghs.</em>] O.K. They said that “genr is imatn whout an origal.” I thk that’s a betiful scriptn, not only of how genr operat but also why we have so much trouble when we do journalism, pecially about transgenr issu.</p><div data-attr-viewport-monor="le-recirc" class="le-recirc-wrapper le-recirc-observer-target-3 viewport-monor-anchor"></div><p class="paywall"><strong>What do mean that has no “origal”?</strong></p><p class="paywall">The simple answer would be—and a lot of standard journalism will give this answer—[that genr and sex are different]. Sex is also not so clear-cut. There are blogil termants of sex that vary om person to person, and there’s a small but signifint mory of people who nnot be so neatly placed the male or female sex tegory. There are expectatns of genr, which change wh time—historil time and personal time. One of the bt quot I’ve heard om somebody who studi genr and medil terventn was “Look, the genr of a five-year-old girl and a fifty-year-old woman is not the same.” I thought, You’re right. We thk of the thgs as stable and knowable, but they’re not. They’re fluid by fn, and our lived experience they’re fluid.</p></div></div></div></div><div data-ttid="RowWrapper" class="RowWrapper-UmqTg HEhan full-bleed-ad row-mid-ntent-ad"><div class="StickyMidContentAdWrapper-fSBzwl drzyIa ad-stickymidntent"><div class="AdWrapper-dQtivb fZrssQ ad ad--mid-ntent should-hold-space"><div class="ad__slot ad__slot--mid-ntent" data-no-id="zrn4kk"></div></div></div></div><div class="GridWrapper-cAzTTK eRggVV grid grid-margs grid-ems-0 ArticlePageChunksGrid-hfxa bDFJoo"><div class="GridItem-buujkM kHPPIF grid--em"><div class="BodyWrapper-kufPGa bDyAMU body body__ntaer article__body" data-journey-hook="client-ntent" data-ttid="BodyWrapper"><div class="body__ner-ntaer"><p class="paywall"><strong>I thk some people would say that homosexualy is somethg that we have known about for many, many centuri. It’s our lerature, ’s history books, but, somehow, generatnally, trans people, wh very rare and notable exceptns—Renée Richards, the tennis player; Jan Morris, the wrer—was somethg that you barely knew about; seemed extraordarily exceptnal. And then sudnly be part of our morn liv. How do you mark that historilly and socially?</strong></p><p class="paywall">So first I want to challenge that a ltle b. There’s a lot of documentatn of people livg as the oppose sex var historil perds. There’s a lot of art pictg —pecially the young woman who drs as a man and go to war. This is a plot that we see so many different cultur.</p><p class="paywall">Is a woman who liv her life—a person assigned female at birth, our morn language—who liv their entire life as a man, marri a woman, and is disvered to have unexpected genalia after ath, is that a transgenr person? That’s an tertg qutn, bee if they weren’t lled a transgenr person, maybe we don’t have a right to ll them a transgenr person 2023.</p><p class="paywall">So part of is not dissiar to homosexualy, which was somethg that existed but wasn’t talked about, and then, all of a sudn, was out the open this untry the late sixti, early seventi. It’s also different. Bee there’s no—and this is where we start gettg to so much trouble wh journalistic verage—bee is plaly knowable that so many more people, pecially young people, are intifyg as transgenr than were even ten years ago, even five years ago. The easit way to try to wrap your md around is to pretend that beg transgenr is aga somethg stable, that beg transgenr today is exactly the same thg as beg transgenr twenty years ago, and that we n, say, distguish om beg homosexual. But we n’t. Beg transgenr today is different om beg transgenr twenty years ago. Beg transgenr a society that unrstands that some people are transgenr is fundamentally different om beg transgenr a society that don’t unrstand.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>And your own life that’s the se?</strong></p><p class="paywall">Absolutely. I remember gettg on my bike Manhattan, maybe four or five years ago, and sudnly realizg that this sense that I am unregnizable, untelligible to the world which I live, was gone. I would bike down the Hudson River Greenway, and people would see a transgenr, or genr-nonnformg, person, ridg down the Hudson River Greenway. And maybe there would still be children tuggg their parents’ sleev and sayg, Is that a man or a woman? But fewer. And the parent would probably be able to say, “Well, that’s probably a transgenr person.”</p><div data-attr-viewport-monor="le-recirc" class="le-recirc-wrapper le-recirc-observer-target-4 viewport-monor-anchor"></div><p class="paywall"><strong>Bee the society has changed.</strong></p><p class="paywall">Bee the society has changed, yeah. I haven’t changed that much appearance my life. But, to my fifti, I was somebody who was untelligible to the world. Sudnly, that was no longer the se.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>Masha, whether ’s the tumult at the New York <em>Tim</em> about s verage of trans issu, or at <a href=">Netflix about Dave Chappelle</a> and his edy, to say nothg of the polil world, there are so many ways that make clear that this is a difficult topic for people to talk about. How would you approach talkg about trans people? What is the state of the nversatn? Where are we? Why is so ght and so often paful?</strong></p><p class="paywall">I thk ’s so paful and so ght bee is very difficult, discsg transns, verg transns, to avoid engagg wh the argument about whether trans people actually exist or have the right to exist. That is eply paful to trans people—and, I would image, to people who love trans people. That’s actually somethg that should be off lims. But is very hard, bee, for example, <a href=">Ey Bazelon’s excellent piece</a> the New York <em>Tim Magaze</em> last summer about the battle over transgenr treatment, there’s a [paraphrased] quote om Andrew Sullivan, the nservative gay journalist, who says, Well, maybe the people would’ve been gay—implyg they’re really gay and not really transgenr. That really clearly veers to the terrory of sayg “The people don’t exist. They’re not who they say they are.” So that’s why ’s so paful.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>So you’re sayg that Ey Bazelon should not have referenced Andrew Sullivan on that? I thk was a paraphrase of Sullivan rather than a quotatn.</strong></p><p class="paywall">I wouldn’t have. I thk that piece would’ve been even better whout that. As journalists, we’re not unr obligatn to quote every sgle view on an issue. I thk we have the right to exclu the view that somebody’s not who they say they are.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>I thk ’s even te, Masha—rrect me if I’m wrong—that even you, as a trans person, wrg about trans issu, have not ped gettg whacked.</strong></p><p class="paywall">Absolutely. Y, I was ncelled by trans Twter once.</p><div data-attr-viewport-monor="le-recirc" class="le-recirc-wrapper le-recirc-observer-target-5 viewport-monor-anchor"></div><p class="paywall"><strong>What happened?</strong></p><p class="paywall">This is another reason why ’s so difficult. Different trans people have vastly different experienc of beg trans. I had a whole life as a female person. Not only that, I rried a pregnancy to term and gave birth and breast-fed, and then, years later, cut off those breasts and am enjoyg the effects of that. I didn’t start my transn until the age of fifty. I have talked about as a seri of choic that I’ve ma. For a lot of people—and this is also te when we talk about sexualy for a lot of people— really, tly never feels like a choice. It feels like an existential issue, that there is a sgle te self. And that sgle-te-self narrative kd of domat the trans si of the ntroversy around verage of trans issu. I thk wrongly so. I thk ’s one way of livg and experiencg life as a trans person.</p></div></div></div></div><div data-ttid="RowWrapper" class="RowWrapper-UmqTg HEhan full-bleed-ad row-mid-ntent-ad"><div class="StickyMidContentAdWrapper-fSBzwl drzyIa ad-stickymidntent"><div class="AdWrapper-dQtivb fZrssQ ad ad--mid-ntent should-hold-space"><div class="ad__slot ad__slot--mid-ntent" data-no-id="1dc8hh"></div></div></div></div><div class="GridWrapper-cAzTTK eRggVV grid grid-margs grid-ems-0 ArticlePageChunksGrid-hfxa bDFJoo"><div class="GridItem-buujkM kHPPIF grid--em"><div class="BodyWrapper-kufPGa bDyAMU body body__ntaer article__body" data-journey-hook="client-ntent" data-ttid="BodyWrapper"><div class="body__ner-ntaer"><p class="paywall">I’m really ncerned about a lot of the cricism of the verage of transns, bee, even though I’m very unhappy wh a lot of the verage, I thk that cricizg on the grounds that there’s too much of is wrong and kd of dangero. The argument generally go: There’s so few trans people, why are you obssed wh them? Well, I’m old enough to have been an <em class="small">AIDS</em> journalist, and I remember when the New York <em>Tim</em> wasn’t verg <em class="small">AIDS</em> bee there were so few people affected by . That’s a crazy reason not to ver somethg! Trans issu are absolutely newsworthy, bee ’s new. In the sense that the prevalence of people who intify as trans is new, ’s lerally news. Republins are makg polil hay about —that’s news.</p><p class="paywall">Most tertgly—and this is where we get to why ’s so difficult—beg trans is unlike anythg else. Beg trans is not a medil ndn, but marri you for life to the medil system. It almost always—not always—volv some kd of medil terventn. How do we thk about that? How do we thk about the way that people make cisns? Both sis of the bate are really terted the issue of regret, and look at regret and transn as a measure of the rightns or wrongns of particular approach to trans treatment. I hate g the word “treatment.” I’m always stumblg over bee ’s not actually treatment, but is treatment. But ’s not a medil ndn. One si, pecially the opponents of childhood medil terventn for trans-intified kids, say that many of them go on to have regrets and transn. Proponents say, No, very few of them have regret. I say, Wa a send, kids and their parents, pecially teen-agers, make a huge number of cisns that have lifelong implitns and are likely to rult regret.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>For example?</strong></p><p class="paywall">For example, takg out huge stunt loans to go to llege and beg saddled wh them for life. For example, jog R.O.T.C. and beg part of the ary for life.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>But wa—is that really parable?</strong></p><p class="paywall">For example, startg to take antiprsants, or other medil treatments. I teach llege. Fully half of my stunts are on some kd of lifelong medil treatment that eher their parents or they and their parents together cid to m to when they were kids or teen-agers. It’s not that different—though, no, not the same. And this is where verage is so difficult, bee a lot of trans people, beg unrstandably offend or hurt by some parisons, say, Don’t pare. But the only way we as humans create meang is that we pare one thg to another and say, O.K., ’s like this some ways, and unlike some other ways.</p><div data-attr-viewport-monor="le-recirc" class="le-recirc-wrapper le-recirc-observer-target-6 viewport-monor-anchor"></div><p class="paywall">But back to the issue of regret: Wouldn’t be wonrful if we uld thk of transn as a lifelong optn? Some people transn more than once. Some people transn om female to male, and then transn om male to female, and then maybe transn aga. That don’t tell that their first transn was wrong any more than my livg as a woman and beg pregnant and havg children was wrong. Although I’m sure I would also have lived a very happy life had I had the chance to transn at twenty.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>How much do you re about eptns of nversatn and Twter furor when to, say, J. K. Rowlg or Dave Chappelle? Are the important moments the velopment of the way we talk about trans people?</strong></p><p class="paywall">Oh. I’m gog to get myself to so much trouble. Twter furor is not generally a eful tool for cultural sense-makg. Dave Chappelle, to my md, is fascatg. I’ve watched, I thk, all or most of his trans jok recently bee I need to discs them wh somebody, and I found them brilliant and radil. The way, for example, he talks about bathroom bills is que credible. So basilly the pot that I heard him makg was that he would rather share the bathroom wh a man wh a vaga than a woman wh a penis. That is a pletely next-level, trans-acceptg kd of humor. And then I was speakg to a very proment trans woman wrer who was so upset that I liked the Dave Chappelle special bee all she heard him say was that her vaga was an Impossible Burger. And I n unrstand that. I mean, I thought that was funny, but I also didn’t take personally. If we uld s down and discs the thgs, pecially wh Dave Chappelle, I thk that would move the nversatn forward.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>One of the symptoms of the newns and the disfort among a lot of people wh this entire subject is stumblg on pronouns. A uple of years ago, you tweeted, “I avoid the topic of pronouns for a while, but when my new book was g out, seemed I had to make a cisn about self-prentatn. I am trans, nonbary, so I asked to be referred to as ‘they.’ It’s been an stctive few weeks.” How was stctive?</strong></p><p class="paywall">So bee I’m nonbary, I for years said, “Call me they, he, she—but I prefer they.” And so this one wrer was wrg about my book and wrote to me, “I cid to e she bee was more elegant,” I thk he said. Or “easier” or somethg.</p></div></div></div></div><div data-ttid="RowWrapper" class="RowWrapper-UmqTg HEhan full-bleed-ad row-mid-ntent-ad"><div class="StickyMidContentAdWrapper-fSBzwl drzyIa ad-stickymidntent"><div class="AdWrapper-dQtivb fZrssQ ad ad--mid-ntent should-hold-space"><div class="ad__slot ad__slot--mid-ntent" data-no-id="7gan3g"></div></div></div></div><div class="GridWrapper-cAzTTK eRggVV grid grid-margs grid-ems-0 ArticlePageChunksGrid-hfxa bDFJoo"><div class="GridItem-buujkM kHPPIF grid--em"><div class="BodyWrapper-kufPGa bDyAMU body body__ntaer article__body" data-journey-hook="client-ntent" data-ttid="BodyWrapper"><div class="body__ner-ntaer"><p class="paywall"><strong>Easier on him.</strong></p><p class="paywall">And I thought, You know what? This was not meant to be for your nvenience. I also thought that there are some thgs that I n do—and I’ve always done this both as a queer person and now as a trans person—when I have a chance to sist on somethg, bee I have promence as a journalist and a wrer, that’ll probably help some eighteen-year-old somewhere who has a lot of trouble sistg and beg lled they/them. I may re about ls than the eighteen-year-old, but I have more power to enforce .</p><p class="paywall"><strong>We’ve been talkg about thgs that I sense you thk are of send-orr importance, when to Dave Chappelle or J. K. Rowlg. What’s the most important thg right now? What are the issu when to trans people that are most urgent?</strong></p><div data-attr-viewport-monor="le-recirc" class="le-recirc-wrapper le-recirc-observer-target-7 viewport-monor-anchor"></div><p class="paywall">I thk the [anti-trans] bills around the untry are absolutely, ccially important. And part of what mak me thk that is that I have seen—not jt Rsia but, say, Hungary, and Poland—the attacks on L.G.B.T. people, and attacks on what [the attackers] ll “genr iology.”</p><p class="paywall"><strong>Which is what?</strong></p><p class="paywall">Genr iology is the spectre of a totalarian regime that will enforce genr fluidy. Bt as I n terpret . But genr iology is a term that appears Brazil, and <a href=">Hungary</a>, and Rsia. It is heavily weaponized by tocrats. I don’t know if you remember, some years ago, there was footage of Judh Butler beg attacked, I thk, at an airport Brazil [ 2017]. They were attacked by some person. There was some prott wh a plard sayg “Down wh your genr iology.” That was, I thk, the first time I heard the term.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>You speak of Brazil, Rsia, Hungary, but let’s move closer to home. At <em class="small">CPAC</em>, Michael Knowl om the Daily Wire ma a speech llg for the “eraditn” of what he lled transgenrism. And he then had to clarify that was not a ll to eradite trans people as such, but an iology of transgenrism. Is there any distctn?</strong></p><p class="paywall">No, of urse there’s no distctn. And that’s why I started wh Rsia. I remember, back when I was stupid, about twelve years ago, seeg that there was some regnal bill to outlaw L.G.B.T. propaganda and thkg was ridiculo and wouldn’t apply to me. And then, two years later, I was on the n om Rsia, bee they were actually g after my kids.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>As I rell, somebody the Rsian legislature ma specific mentn of you.</strong></p><p class="paywall">Correct. It was a polician named Valy Milonov who was at the foreont of fightg the L.G.B.T. surge, who said that all Amerins want to do is adopt Rsian orphans and raise them perverted fai “like Masha Gsen’s.” Which was basilly a sign to me that I had to get my adopted son out of the untry, which also meant I had to leave the untry. When I see that transgenr re for adults is likely to bee illegal some stat, then I know that my ttosterone New York is probably not as safe as I thk is.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>Last week, both Mississippi and Tennsee banned genr-affirmg health re for trans youth. When we talk about genr-affirmg re, let’s be clear: what specifilly are we talkg about, there or anywhere?</strong></p><div data-attr-viewport-monor="le-recirc" class="le-recirc-wrapper le-recirc-observer-target-8 viewport-monor-anchor"></div><p class="paywall">This is actually another topic where I thk that cricism of the journalism is misguid, bee some of the cricism of the journalism has been: Don’t qutn standards of re. Well, is our job as journalists to qutn standards of re. Journalists should absolutely qutn standards of re. And there’s some legimate ntroversy about standards of re for trans youth. What’s pletely unntroversial is social transn. What’s largely unntroversial is—</p><p class="paywall"><strong>By social transn, you mean?</strong></p><p class="paywall">I mean livg as the genr that the person intifi as; fully changg nam, changg pronouns, et cetera. What’s not terribly ntroversial is hormone treatment young people who have gone through puberty. And what is somewhat ntroversial is puberty blockers, which are many plac the standard of re. Puberty blockers are exactly what they sound like; they lay puberty. Certaly, people’s experience is that, if they don’t go through the puberty of the sex wh which they don’t intify—[if] they don’t grow breasts, or they don’t grow hair and tticl—then ’ll be much easier to transn when they start receivg hormone treatment. There are some studi that pot to potential risks of long-term—more than a year or so—e of puberty blockers. That is absolutely a legimate topic of discsn. But, of urse, ’s bee very difficult to ver bee of bills Texas, Mississippi, Florida, Arkansas, and other stat that lump all of the treatments the same bucket, and seek to outlaw, or have already outlawed, all of them.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>Where do surgery e ?</strong></p><p class="paywall">Surgery is very, very rarely somethg that people unr eighteen have.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>I ask bee seems to me that, when I listen to the rhetoric of the right, you would thk that surgery on very young people whout parents knowg is somehow sweepg the untry.</strong></p><p class="paywall">As far as I know, ’s not a thg.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>Why do surance pani equently require psychologil evaluatn, sometim om multiple sourc, to rroborate the need for genr-affirmg re, when psychologil evaluatn is not required for parable forms of medice and procr non-trans people?</strong></p></div></div></div></div><div data-ttid="RowWrapper" class="RowWrapper-UmqTg HEhan full-bleed-ad row-mid-ntent-ad"><div class="StickyMidContentAdWrapper-fSBzwl drzyIa ad-stickymidntent"><div class="AdWrapper-dQtivb fZrssQ ad ad--mid-ntent should-hold-space"><div class="ad__slot ad__slot--mid-ntent" data-no-id="t02pad"></div></div></div></div><div class="GridWrapper-cAzTTK eRggVV grid grid-margs grid-ems-0 ArticlePageChunksGrid-hfxa bDFJoo"><div class="GridItem-buujkM kHPPIF grid--em"><div class="BodyWrapper-kufPGa bDyAMU body body__ntaer article__body" data-journey-hook="client-ntent" data-ttid="BodyWrapper"><div class="body__ner-ntaer"><p class="paywall">I’ll tell you more, David. When I was fifty-one and had top surgery and paid out of pocket for , I still had to get a letter om my physician and a psychiatrist.</p><div data-attr-viewport-monor="le-recirc" class="le-recirc-wrapper le-recirc-observer-target-9 viewport-monor-anchor"></div><p class="paywall"><strong>Masha, do you thk the left generally do a good job of speakg on trans issu a way that a broar public n unrstand? In other words, we’ve been talkg about <em class="small">CPAC</em>, we’ve been talkg about the Republin Party, Ron DeSantis, Tmp, and the rt. What about the other si of thgs?</strong></p><p class="paywall">I want to be genero about this bee—</p><p class="paywall"><strong>Why?</strong></p><p class="paywall">Well, bee I want to acknowledge the difficult suatn that we’re . I’m very trated wh both L.G.B.T.-activist anizatns and other proment advocy anizatns over the very rctive ways which they ame trans issu. For example, amg accs to genr-affirmg re for trans youth as a qutn of suici and survival. There’s an extremely high rate of suici risk among trans people general, but genr-affirmg re don’t actually seem to be the answer to the suici risk. Maybe more social acceptance is the answer. In general, the Democratic Party follows the lead of advocy anizatns, which is actually good. The blame is wh the advocy anizatns. But ’s very hard to blame the advocy anizatns for not beg plex and nuanced their rhetoric when the right is on such a rampage. So that’s why I want to be genero.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>Sure. We talked about the New York <em>Tim</em>. <em>The Atlantic</em> also sparked a lot of backlash 2018 over a ver article about transng [“<a href=">When Children Say They’re Trans</a>,” by Jse Sgal]. We touched on this earlier, but has the amount of verage that transng received the media been skewed? Has that altered your perceptn of how the prs is verg this general?</strong></p><p class="paywall">Yeah. I thk there’s way too much foc on transng. And what I thk that’s about, part, ’s almost like what San Sontag lled the sex exceptn, except ’s the genr exceptn. We normalize regret other areas of life. We do thgs and then we regret them. We have children and regret . All the time. It’s perfectly normal. [<em>Lghs.</em>]</p><p class="paywall"><strong>Speak for yourself! He quickly add.</strong></p><p class="paywall">But we thk that somethg so tastrophic happens to a person who transns. . . . There’s this book, om a few years ago, by Abigail Shrier, lled “Irreversible Damage: The Transgenr Craze Scg Our Dghters.” The ia is that you do somethg to yourself that you will never ga back. And particular she was talkg about girls makg the choice to forfe beg able to bear children. Which, y, is a big thg, but also not a unique thg, not a life-g thg, necsarily. But we do talk about as though, of all the loss a person n have their life, this is one that we n’t make up for.</p><div data-attr-viewport-monor="le-recirc" class="le-recirc-wrapper le-recirc-observer-target-10 viewport-monor-anchor"></div><p class="paywall"><strong>What are the biggt mistak that well-meang people make when they talk about trans people?</strong></p><p class="paywall">I thk probably the biggt mistake is not regnizg that there are different ias about transns wh the trans muny. Probably different trans muni. Certaly different experienc of transns. That, for some people, ’s an sential part of themselv. Some people are tly bary. Some people are tly nonbary. Some people are still negotiatn wh their inty.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>What do you hope for our own publitn as we move forward and we wre about this, grapple wh this, thk about this? What should we be dog, and how do we get better?</strong></p><p class="paywall">I thk one thg that I’m really happy to have been able to do is jt wre about trans people as though there’s nothg unual about trans people.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>Where the transns is almost cintal to what you’re wrg.</strong></p><p class="paywall">Exactly. We have to wa to this ntroversy, which do exist. Some of the cricism of trans verage the <em>Tim</em> and elsewhere has said, Oh, ’s a manufactured culture war. Well, of urse. All culture wars are manufactured, but this one is happeng. So we have to figure out a way to ver , I thk, a plited way. ♦</p></div></div></div></div></div><div class="GridWrapper-cAzTTK eRggVV grid grid-margs grid-ems-0 PaywallInleBarrierWhWrapperGrid-fyrGfS jyGBoi"><div class="GridItem-buujkM kHPPIF grid--em"><div class="body body__le-barrier article__body article__body--grid-margs"><div class="ntaer ntaer--body"><div class="ntaer--body-ner"><asi class="PaywallInleBarrierWrapper-iBnuqk lfXXa-D" data-ttid="PaywallInleBarrierWrapper"><div class="ConsumerMarketgUnThemedWrapper-iUTMTf jssHut nsumer-marketg-un nsumer-marketg-un--paywall-le-barrier" role="prentatn" aria-live="pole" aria-hidn="te"><div class="nsumer-marketg-un__slot nsumer-marketg-un__slot--paywall-le-barrier"></div><div class="journey-un"></div></div></asi></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="GridWrapper-cAzTTK eRggVV grid grid-margs grid-ems-0 ContentWrapperGrid-fvkmBv jfHKjr"><div class="GridItem-buujkM kHPPIF grid--em"><div class="body body__ntaer"><div class="ntaer ntaer--body"><div class="ntaer--body-ner"></div></div></div></div></div></div></article><div class="ContentFooterWrapper-jVNdRG bGJnrW ArticlePageContentFooterGrid-ccsXYy fzwwkW article-body__footer"><div data-ttid="RowWrapper" class="RowWrapper-UmqTg HEhan"><div class="GridWrapper-cAzTTK eRggVV grid grid-margs grid-ems-0"><div class="GridItem-buujkM kHPPIF grid--em"><div class="LkStackWrapper-NFLYw kgtXXB lkstack" data-ttid="LkStack"><div class="SectnTleRoot-dBGvdq kjAxEG LkStackHear-lKjbE hejl lk-stack--headg" data-ttid="SectnTle"><h2 class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ SectnTleHed-dKqZet dxqEAa dqtvfu jttyjJ">More New Yorker Conversatns</h2></div><div class="LkStackContent-jyKicS gPhyME"><ul class="LkStackList-gGcjdZ dnMwpz"><li class="LkStackBullet-kQRqul iQHwiG lk-stack--lk-em" data-ttid="LkStackBullet"><div><p>Eva Longoria brgs <a href="/culture/the-new-yorker-terview/eva-longoria-brgs-lato-life-to-the-screen" class="InternalLkEmbedWrapper-fhjgJW cQLtaa">Lato life to the screen</a>.</p></div></li><li class="LkStackBullet-kQRqul iQHwiG lk-stack--lk-em" data-ttid="LkStackBullet"><div><p><a href="/culture/the-new-yorker-terview/harvey-karp-knows-how-to-make-babi-happy" class="InternalLkEmbedWrapper-fhjgJW cQLtaa">Harvey Karp</a> knows how to make babi happy.</p></div></li><li class="LkStackBullet-kQRqul iQHwiG lk-stack--lk-em" data-ttid="LkStackBullet"><div><p>Tx explas why <a href="/culture/the-new-yorker-terview/tx-explas-why-were-datg-all-wrong" class="InternalLkEmbedWrapper-fhjgJW cQLtaa">we’re datg all wrong</a>.</p></div></li><li class="LkStackBullet-kQRqul iQHwiG lk-stack--lk-em" data-ttid="LkStackBullet"><div><p>Ken Jenngs has some <a href="/culture/the-new-yorker-terview/ken-jenngs-has-some-qutns-about-ath" class="InternalLkEmbedWrapper-fhjgJW cQLtaa">qutns about ath</a>.</p></div></li><li class="LkStackBullet-kQRqul iQHwiG lk-stack--lk-em" data-ttid="LkStackBullet"><div><p>Llie Marmon Silko <a href="/culture/the-new-yorker-terview/llie-marmon-silko-saw--g" class="InternalLkEmbedWrapper-fhjgJW cQLtaa">saw g</a>.</p></div></li><li class="LkStackBullet-kQRqul iQHwiG lk-stack--lk-em" data-ttid="LkStackBullet"><div><p>Tom Hanks on the rewards and <a href="/culture/the-new-yorker-terview/tom-hanks-on-the-rewards-and-vic-realy-of-makg-movi" class="InternalLkEmbedWrapper-fhjgJW cQLtaa">“vic realy” of makg movi</a>.</p></div></li></ul><div class="LkStackFooter-KfRyO ebnmps lk-stack--footer"><div><p><a href=">Sign up</a> for our daily newsletter to receive the bt stori om <em>The New Yorker</em>.</p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div data-ttid="RowWrapper" class="RowWrapper-UmqTg HEhan"><div class="GridWrapper-cAzTTK eRggVV grid grid-margs grid-ems-0"><div class="GridItem-buujkM kHPPIF grid--em"><div class="ContributorsWrapper-eNpWFu GWFsc ntributors" data-ttid="Contributors"><div class="ContributorBWrapper-bnVHbt gMon"><div class="ContributorBAvatar-bIGTqf eMWbvj"><a href="/ntributors/david-remnick"><span class="SpanWrapper-umhxW jvZaPI rponsive-asset"><picture class="RponsiveImagePicture-cWuUZO dUOtEa rponsive-image"><source media="(max-width: 767px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w" siz="100vw"/><source media="(m-width: 768px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w" siz="100vw"/><img alt="" class="RponsiveImageContaer-eybHBd fptoWY rponsive-image__image" src="></picture></span></a></div><div class="ContributorBContent-ubQdr jZTSSi"><div class="ContributorBHear-ledood XOIEx"></div><div class="ContributorBB-fBolsO giFhKz"><a href="/ntributors/david-remnick">David Remnick</a> has been the edor of The New Yorker sce 1998 and a staff wrer sce 1992. 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class="RponsiveImagePicture-cWuUZO dUOtEa SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image rponsive-image"><noscript><source media="(max-width: 767px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w, 640w" siz="100vw"/><source media="(m-width: 768px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w" siz="100vw"/><img alt="We Should All Be Drkg Spanish Vermouth" class="RponsiveImageContaer-eybHBd fptoWY rponsive-image__image" src="></noscript></picture></div></div></span></a></div><div class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ SummaryItemDek-CRfsi iUEiRd jxOIpm cPtisA summary-em__k">A fortified we wh guts and spe and teeth and claws, <em>vermut</em> is an ial antidote to summer’s ambient fatigue.</div><div class="SummaryItemByleWrapper-boCfbi hYsZi summary-em__byle-date-in"><div class="SummaryItemBaseByle-fFbXkY cgDBtc summary-em__byle"><div class="summary-em__byle__ntent"><div data-ttid="BylWrapper" class="BylWrapper-KIudk irTIfE byl"><p class="ByleWrapper-jWHrLH dSEWiO byle byl__byle" data-ttid="ByleWrapper" emProp="thor" emType="><span emProp="name" class="ByleNamWrapper-jbHncj fuDQVo"><span data-ttid="ByleName" class="ByleName-kwmrLn cYaBaU byle__name"><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ BylePreamble-iJolpQ iUEiRd jslZfG gnILss byle__preamble">By </span>Helen Rosner</span></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="SummaryItemWrapper-iwvBff hlYhBH summary-em summary-em--ARTICLE summary-em--no-in summary-em--text-align-left summary-em--layout-placement-text-below-sktop-only summary-em--layout-posn-image-right summary-em--layout-proportns-33-66 summary-em--si-by-si-align-center summary-em--si-by-si-image-right-mobile-false summary-em--standard SummaryCollectnGridSummaryItem-WColm fvDIAb" role="button" tabx="0"><div class="SummaryItemAssetContaer-gwhFFH VOyg summary-em__asset-ntaer"><a class="SummaryItemImageLk-dshqxb USLvL summary-em__image-lk summary-em-trackg__image-lk" href=" aria-hidn="te" tabx="-1" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-image-2" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" target="_self"><span class="SpanWrapper-umhxW kGxnNB rponsive-asset SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image"><div data-tt="aspect-rat-ntaer" class="AspectRatContaer-bJHpJz jMoLpX"><div class="aspect-rat--overlay-ntaer"><picture class="RponsiveImagePicture-cWuUZO dUOtEa SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image rponsive-image"><noscript><source media="(max-width: 767px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w, 640w" siz="100vw"/><source media="(m-width: 768px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w" siz="100vw"/><img alt="Matthew Wong Turned Lonels Into a Landspe" class="RponsiveImageContaer-eybHBd fptoWY rponsive-image__image" src="></noscript></picture></div></div></span></a></div><div class="SummaryItemContent-eiDYMl ldWYvC summary-em__ntent"><div class="RubricWrapper-dKmCNX kImuKS bric bric--disvery SummaryItemRubric-dguGKN fYiFyD summary-em__bric"><span class="RubricName-fVtemz cLxcNi">The Art World</span></div><a class="SummaryItemHedLk-civM cZPaWG summary-em-trackg__hed-lk summary-em__hed-lk" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-hed-2" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" href=" target="_self"><div class="SummaryItemHedBase-hiFYpQ iIjKeM summary-em__hed" data-ttid="SummaryItemHed">Matthew Wong Turned Lonels Into a Landspe</div></a><div class="SummaryItemAssetContaer-gwhFFH VOyg summary-em__asset-ntaer"><a class="SummaryItemImageLk-dshqxb USLvL summary-em__image-lk summary-em-trackg__image-lk" href=" aria-hidn="te" tabx="-1" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-image-2" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" target="_self"><span class="SpanWrapper-umhxW kGxnNB rponsive-asset SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image"><div data-tt="aspect-rat-ntaer" class="AspectRatContaer-bJHpJz jMoLpX"><div class="aspect-rat--overlay-ntaer"><picture class="RponsiveImagePicture-cWuUZO dUOtEa SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image rponsive-image"><noscript><source media="(max-width: 767px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w, 640w" siz="100vw"/><source media="(m-width: 768px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w" siz="100vw"/><img alt="Matthew Wong Turned Lonels Into a Landspe" class="RponsiveImageContaer-eybHBd fptoWY rponsive-image__image" src="></noscript></picture></div></div></span></a></div><div class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ SummaryItemDek-CRfsi iUEiRd jxOIpm cPtisA summary-em__k">In “The Realm of Appearanc,” the artist’s first mm retrospective, the distctn between si and outsi is slowly broken down.</div><div class="SummaryItemByleWrapper-boCfbi hYsZi summary-em__byle-date-in"><div class="SummaryItemBaseByle-fFbXkY cgDBtc summary-em__byle"><div class="summary-em__byle__ntent"><div data-ttid="BylWrapper" class="BylWrapper-KIudk irTIfE byl"><p class="ByleWrapper-jWHrLH dSEWiO byle byl__byle" data-ttid="ByleWrapper" emProp="thor" emType="><span emProp="name" class="ByleNamWrapper-jbHncj fuDQVo"><span data-ttid="ByleName" class="ByleName-kwmrLn cYaBaU byle__name"><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ BylePreamble-iJolpQ iUEiRd jslZfG gnILss byle__preamble">By </span>Jackson Arn</span></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="SummaryItemWrapper-iwvBff hlYhBH summary-em summary-em--ARTICLE summary-em--no-in summary-em--text-align-left summary-em--layout-placement-text-below-sktop-only summary-em--layout-posn-image-right summary-em--layout-proportns-33-66 summary-em--si-by-si-align-center summary-em--si-by-si-image-right-mobile-false summary-em--standard SummaryCollectnGridSummaryItem-WColm fvDIAb" role="button" tabx="0"><div class="SummaryItemAssetContaer-gwhFFH VOyg summary-em__asset-ntaer"><a class="SummaryItemImageLk-dshqxb USLvL summary-em__image-lk summary-em-trackg__image-lk" href=" aria-hidn="te" tabx="-1" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-image-3" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" target="_self"><span class="SpanWrapper-umhxW kGxnNB rponsive-asset SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image"><div data-tt="aspect-rat-ntaer" class="AspectRatContaer-bJHpJz jMoLpX"><div class="aspect-rat--overlay-ntaer"><picture class="RponsiveImagePicture-cWuUZO dUOtEa SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image rponsive-image"><noscript><source media="(max-width: 767px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w, 640w" siz="100vw"/><source media="(m-width: 768px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w" siz="100vw"/><img alt="The Master Fabulist of Amerin Fictn" class="RponsiveImageContaer-eybHBd fptoWY rponsive-image__image" src="></noscript></picture></div></div></span></a></div><div class="SummaryItemContent-eiDYMl ldWYvC summary-em__ntent"><div class="RubricWrapper-dKmCNX kImuKS bric bric--disvery SummaryItemRubric-dguGKN fYiFyD summary-em__bric"><span class="RubricName-fVtemz cLxcNi">Books</span></div><a class="SummaryItemHedLk-civM cZPaWG summary-em-trackg__hed-lk summary-em__hed-lk" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-hed-3" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" href=" target="_self"><div class="SummaryItemHedBase-hiFYpQ iIjKeM summary-em__hed" data-ttid="SummaryItemHed">The Master Fabulist of Amerin Fictn</div></a><div class="SummaryItemAssetContaer-gwhFFH VOyg summary-em__asset-ntaer"><a class="SummaryItemImageLk-dshqxb USLvL summary-em__image-lk summary-em-trackg__image-lk" href=" aria-hidn="te" tabx="-1" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-image-3" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" target="_self"><span class="SpanWrapper-umhxW kGxnNB rponsive-asset SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image"><div data-tt="aspect-rat-ntaer" class="AspectRatContaer-bJHpJz jMoLpX"><div class="aspect-rat--overlay-ntaer"><picture class="RponsiveImagePicture-cWuUZO dUOtEa SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image rponsive-image"><noscript><source media="(max-width: 767px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w, 640w" siz="100vw"/><source media="(m-width: 768px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w" siz="100vw"/><img alt="The Master Fabulist of Amerin Fictn" class="RponsiveImageContaer-eybHBd fptoWY rponsive-image__image" src="></noscript></picture></div></div></span></a></div><div class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ SummaryItemDek-CRfsi iUEiRd jxOIpm cPtisA summary-em__k">In “Disptns,” a new llectn of stori, Steven Millhser revaliz the small-town tale, evokg the magil, the mundane, and the extravagantly madp.</div><div class="SummaryItemByleWrapper-boCfbi hYsZi summary-em__byle-date-in"><div class="SummaryItemBaseByle-fFbXkY cgDBtc summary-em__byle"><div class="summary-em__byle__ntent"><div data-ttid="BylWrapper" class="BylWrapper-KIudk irTIfE byl"><p class="ByleWrapper-jWHrLH dSEWiO byle byl__byle" data-ttid="ByleWrapper" emProp="thor" emType="><span emProp="name" class="ByleNamWrapper-jbHncj fuDQVo"><span data-ttid="ByleName" class="ByleName-kwmrLn cYaBaU byle__name"><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ BylePreamble-iJolpQ iUEiRd jslZfG gnILss byle__preamble">By </span>Charl McGrath</span></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="SummaryItemWrapper-iwvBff hlYhBH summary-em summary-em--ARTICLE summary-em--no-in summary-em--text-align-left summary-em--layout-placement-text-below-sktop-only summary-em--layout-posn-image-right summary-em--layout-proportns-33-66 summary-em--si-by-si-align-center summary-em--si-by-si-image-right-mobile-false summary-em--standard SummaryCollectnGridSummaryItem-WColm fvDIAb" role="button" tabx="0"><div class="SummaryItemAssetContaer-gwhFFH VOyg summary-em__asset-ntaer"><a class="SummaryItemImageLk-dshqxb USLvL summary-em__image-lk summary-em-trackg__image-lk" href=" aria-hidn="te" tabx="-1" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-image-4" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" target="_self"><span class="SpanWrapper-umhxW kGxnNB rponsive-asset SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image"><div data-tt="aspect-rat-ntaer" class="AspectRatContaer-bJHpJz jMoLpX"><div class="aspect-rat--overlay-ntaer"><picture class="RponsiveImagePicture-cWuUZO dUOtEa SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image rponsive-image"><noscript><source media="(max-width: 767px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w, 640w" siz="100vw"/><source media="(m-width: 768px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w" siz="100vw"/><img alt="A Once--a-Lifetime Summer Spectacle" class="RponsiveImageContaer-eybHBd fptoWY rponsive-image__image" src="></noscript></picture></div></div></span></a></div><div class="SummaryItemContent-eiDYMl ldWYvC summary-em__ntent"><div class="RubricWrapper-dKmCNX kImuKS bric bric--disvery SummaryItemRubric-dguGKN fYiFyD summary-em__bric"><span class="RubricName-fVtemz cLxcNi">Daily Shouts</span></div><a class="SummaryItemHedLk-civM cZPaWG summary-em-trackg__hed-lk summary-em__hed-lk" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-hed-4" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" href=" target="_self"><div class="SummaryItemHedBase-hiFYpQ iIjKeM summary-em__hed" data-ttid="SummaryItemHed">A Once--a-Lifetime Summer Spectacle</div></a><div class="SummaryItemAssetContaer-gwhFFH VOyg summary-em__asset-ntaer"><a class="SummaryItemImageLk-dshqxb USLvL summary-em__image-lk summary-em-trackg__image-lk" href=" aria-hidn="te" tabx="-1" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-image-4" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" target="_self"><span class="SpanWrapper-umhxW kGxnNB rponsive-asset SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image"><div data-tt="aspect-rat-ntaer" class="AspectRatContaer-bJHpJz jMoLpX"><div class="aspect-rat--overlay-ntaer"><picture class="RponsiveImagePicture-cWuUZO dUOtEa SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image rponsive-image"><noscript><source media="(max-width: 767px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w, 640w" siz="100vw"/><source media="(m-width: 768px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w" siz="100vw"/><img alt="A Once--a-Lifetime Summer Spectacle" class="RponsiveImageContaer-eybHBd fptoWY rponsive-image__image" src="></noscript></picture></div></div></span></a></div><div class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ SummaryItemDek-CRfsi iUEiRd jxOIpm cPtisA summary-em__k">Nearly half of Amerins live wh five hundred of a lotn that is expected to have a clear view of an dictment of Donald Tmp this summer.</div><div class="SummaryItemByleWrapper-boCfbi hYsZi summary-em__byle-date-in"><div class="SummaryItemBaseByle-fFbXkY cgDBtc summary-em__byle"><div class="summary-em__byle__ntent"><div data-ttid="BylWrapper" class="BylWrapper-KIudk irTIfE byl"><p class="ByleWrapper-jWHrLH dSEWiO byle byl__byle" data-ttid="ByleWrapper" emProp="thor" emType="><span emProp="name" class="ByleNamWrapper-jbHncj fuDQVo"><span data-ttid="ByleName" class="ByleName-kwmrLn cYaBaU byle__name"><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ BylePreamble-iJolpQ iUEiRd jslZfG gnILss byle__preamble">By </span>Nathaniel Ste</span></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="AdWrapper-dQtivb fZrssQ 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23.9508V2.95081H14V3.93211H6V22.1845L12.5 18.5536L19 22.1845V8.83866H20V23.9508Z"></path><path class="in-bookmark-fill" d="M23 3H20V0H19V3H16V4H19V7H20V4H23V3Z"></path></svg></span><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ ActnBarButtonText-bYXYuh iUEiRd bkefvo gkccfO">Save this story</span></button></div></div></div><div class="LightboxWrapper-dxsWBV hhylRt"><div class="ArticlePageChunksContent-etcMtP imbgVA"><div data-ttid="ArticlePageChunks" class="ArticlePageChunks-fLyCVG lmuXQm"><div class="GridWrapper-cAzTTK eRggVV grid grid-margs grid-ems-0 ArticlePageChunksGrid-hfxa bDFJoo"><div class="GridItem-buujkM kHPPIF grid--em"><div class="BodyWrapper-kufPGa bDyAMU body body__ntaer article__body" data-journey-hook="client-ntent" data-ttid="BodyWrapper"><div class="body__ner-ntaer"><p class="has-dropp has-dropp__lead-standard-headg">The first time I saw Masha Gsen was more than thirty years ago, on the streets of Mosw. This was durg the <a href=">Gorbachev</a> era, the pertroika years, a time of reform and promise. It’s hard to image now. As a reporter for the Washgton <em>Post</em>, I was tryg to keep track of the untls ways which Soviet society was changg. For a long time, spe all the other radil shifts nsumg the untry, discsn of gay rights was largely absent. In those days, public figur would sometim proclaim that homosexualy was a repugnant peculiary of the Wt and did not exist at home. In the late eighti, the official prs clared that H.I.V. was alien to the Soviet Unn and had been created by the U.S. fense tablishment, a bweapons-rearch lab at Fort Detrick, Maryland. But by 1990 or so this, too, began to shift. For me, at least, one of the embodiments of this change was the sight of a termed young journalist and activist at the head of a small gay-rights rally near the Bolshoi Theatre. This was Masha Gsen.</p><p class="paywall">Gsen has been a staff wrer for <em>The New Yorker</em> sce 2017 and is bt known for their wrg on Rsia, human rights, mocracy and thorarianism, and, for the past thirteen months, the <a href=">war Ukrae</a>. Recently, not long after Gsen returned om a reportg trip to Ukrae, I sent them an e-mail potg out some of the bat over the way trans issu are beg vered and discsed. The latt flash pot had been at the New York <em>Tim</em>. I asked Gsen, who intifi as trans and nonbary, how <em>The New Yorker</em> should be thkg about s own verage and approach. The reply led to an terview on <a data-offer-url=" class="external-lk" data-event-click="{"element":"ExternalLk","outgogURL":"" href=" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">The New Yorker Rad Hour</a>.</p><p class="paywall">Gsen was born to a Jewish fay Mosw 1967. The fay moved to the U.S. 1981, and Masha returned to Mosw 1991. I first began readg their work, wh admiratn, the pag of <em>Itogi</em>, a Yelts-era magaze led by two talented liberal edors, Sergei Parkhomenko and <a href=">Masha Lipman</a>. In the years sce, Gsen has published books on Put, the Rsian telligentsia, and many other subjects; their most recent is “<a data-offer-url=" class="external-lk" data-event-click="{"element":"ExternalLk","outgogURL":"" href=" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Survivg Autocracy</a>.” This week, was announced that Gsen won the Blake-Dodd Prize for nonfictn, award by the Amerin Amy of Arts and Letters. In 2013, when <a href=">Vladimir Put</a> tensified his anti-L.G.B.T.Q. rhetoric and threatened measur to take children away om gay parents, Gsen, who has three children, cid to return to the U.S. Our nversatn has been eded for length and clary.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>Masha, to hear many Republins right now, you’d thk that L.G.B.T.Q. rights are somehow as big a threat as the new Cold War, or nuclear war. I spoke wh Michaela Cavangh, a Democratic state senator Nebraska, who is fightg to block a bill that would whhold genr-affirmg re om trans kids, cludg mental-health re. She told me that the Republins wh whom she legislat aren’t that worked up about trans rights, and that the bills are signed to get airtime on Fox News; they’re a kd of directive om the natnal party. That seems like a nvenient argument for a Democrat who don’t want to make too many enemi among her Republin lleagu. What is the motivatn for <a href=">Ron DeSantis</a>, for <a href=">Donald Tmp</a>, for the Republin Party, to make this issue to somethg so enormo?</strong></p><p class="paywall">I thk I probably agree wh the state senator a ltle b, the sense that all the bills are about signallg, and what they’re signallg is the sence of past-oriented polics. It’s a really nvenient signal bee some of the most recent and most rapid social change ncerns L.G.B.T. rights general, and trans rights and trans visibily particular.</p><p class="paywall">All the tocratic polics that we see around the world right now are past-oriented polics. It’s Put’s ll for a return to “the great Rsia” of the past. Note that Put’s war Ukrae go hand hand wh extreme anti-L.G.B.T. rhetoric. In his last speech, he took time to assert that God is male, and that the crazy Europeans and the “Nazi” Ukraians are tryg to make God genr-fluid. I’m not kiddg.</p><div data-attr-viewport-monor="le-recirc" class="le-recirc-wrapper le-recirc-observer-target-1 viewport-monor-anchor"></div><p class="paywall"><strong>Men are men and women are women, and that’s the end of the story.</strong></p><p class="paywall">Right. That simplicy—women are women, men are men. There’s social and fancial stabily. Where relevant, there’s whens. There’s a fortable and predictable future. That’s a msage that says, We’re gog to return you to a time when thgs weren’t sry, when thgs didn’t make you unfortable, when you didn’t fear that your kid was gog to e home om school and tell you that they’re trans. Andrew Solomon has wrten betifully about this—about the anxiety nnected wh havg children whose inty is pletely different om yours.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>Meang how upsettg that difference is and the appeal of that difference not happeng?</strong></p><div><div class="ConsumerMarketgUnThemedWrapper-iUTMTf jssHut nsumer-marketg-un nsumer-marketg-un--article-mid-ntent" role="prentatn" aria-hidn="te"><div class="nsumer-marketg-un__slot nsumer-marketg-un__slot--article-mid-ntent nsumer-marketg-un__slot---ntent"></div><div class="journey-un"></div></div></div><p class="paywall">Right. Promisg to take that fear and anxiety away is tly powerful.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>I thk many people know you om your verage of Rsia, and now the war Ukrae. The first time I ever met you, or even saw you, was 1991. You were leadg, or part of, a gay-rights monstratn Mosw. You’re a cizen of both Rsia and the Uned Stat, and this movement has been a big part of your life. But I thought maybe we’d go back even further time, for you to tell me about your own journey, about genr, about sexualy, and why this has bee such a big part of your life, as well as your journalism and your wrg.</strong></p><p class="paywall">Profsnally, I started out gay and lbian journalism, as was known, the mid-eighti. At the time, was obv that, if somebody was dog gay and lbian journalism, they were at least queer. Growg up, I was most fely trans-intified, except I didn’t have words for .</p><div class="Contaer-bkChBi byNLHx"></div><p class="paywall"><strong>We’re talkg how old, then?</strong></p><p class="paywall">Five? Six? I remember, at the age of five, gog to sleep my <em>dyetski sad</em>, my Rsian prchool, and hopg that I would wake up a boy. A real boy. I had people addrs me by a boy’s name. My parents, fortunately, were credibly game. They were totally fe wh .</p><div data-attr-viewport-monor="le-recirc" class="le-recirc-wrapper le-recirc-observer-target-2 viewport-monor-anchor"></div><p class="paywall"><strong>Bee they were so broad-md, or bee they jt thought was a passg thg?</strong></p><p class="paywall">I thk bee they’re pretty broad-md. I remember that the late seventi—so I would’ve been ten or eleven years old—they read a Polish magaze about trans—“transsexual” at that pot—surgery, and told me about . And I said, “Oh, I’m gog to have an operatn when I grow up.” And they said, “That’s fe.” So that was kd of the al. And then I went through puberty and I uld no longer live as a boy so clearly. Then I was a lbian for many, many years, or more likely queer. But I’ve always thought of myself as havg more of a genr inty than a sexual orientatn.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>What do that mean?</strong></p><p class="paywall">We were not supposed to talk like this the eighti and neti. We were supposed to be very clear about sexual orientatn beg separate om genr, and that, if you were lbian, that didn’t mean you wanted to be a man. In fact, for a lot of people, ’s more plited than that. It’s a ltle b of this and a ltle b of that. I’ve always been attracted to both men and women, but I’ve always been very clearly genr nonnformg.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>One of the thgs that beme part of the language at a certa perd of time was the followg sentence: “Genr is a nstct.” I thk most people over the centuri thought of genr as somethg provid by blogy. What is the orig of the notn of genr as a nstct?</strong></p><p class="paywall"><a href=">Judh Butler</a>, who certaly did not vent the phrase “genr as a nstct” but did a lot to popularize that ia, and an ia of genr as performance, which I thk is even more relevant to what we’re talkg about—she said fairly recently—or, I’m sorry, <em>they</em> said fairly recently— an terview that—</p><p class="paywall"><strong>I thk ’ll be hearteng for some to know that you ma this mistake. We’re leavg !</strong></p><p class="paywall">[<em>Lghs.</em>] O.K. They said that “genr is imatn whout an origal.” I thk that’s a betiful scriptn, not only of how genr operat but also why we have so much trouble when we do journalism, pecially about transgenr issu.</p><div data-attr-viewport-monor="le-recirc" class="le-recirc-wrapper le-recirc-observer-target-3 viewport-monor-anchor"></div><p class="paywall"><strong>What do mean that has no “origal”?</strong></p><p class="paywall">The simple answer would be—and a lot of standard journalism will give this answer—[that genr and sex are different]. Sex is also not so clear-cut. There are blogil termants of sex that vary om person to person, and there’s a small but signifint mory of people who nnot be so neatly placed the male or female sex tegory. There are expectatns of genr, which change wh time—historil time and personal time. One of the bt quot I’ve heard om somebody who studi genr and medil terventn was “Look, the genr of a five-year-old girl and a fifty-year-old woman is not the same.” I thought, You’re right. We thk of the thgs as stable and knowable, but they’re not. They’re fluid by fn, and our lived experience they’re fluid.</p></div></div></div></div><div data-ttid="RowWrapper" class="RowWrapper-UmqTg HEhan full-bleed-ad row-mid-ntent-ad"><div class="StickyMidContentAdWrapper-fSBzwl drzyIa ad-stickymidntent"><div class="AdWrapper-dQtivb fZrssQ ad ad--mid-ntent should-hold-space"><div class="ad__slot ad__slot--mid-ntent" data-no-id="zrn4kk"></div></div></div></div><div class="GridWrapper-cAzTTK eRggVV grid grid-margs grid-ems-0 ArticlePageChunksGrid-hfxa bDFJoo"><div class="GridItem-buujkM kHPPIF grid--em"><div class="BodyWrapper-kufPGa bDyAMU body body__ntaer article__body" data-journey-hook="client-ntent" data-ttid="BodyWrapper"><div class="body__ner-ntaer"><p class="paywall"><strong>I thk some people would say that homosexualy is somethg that we have known about for many, many centuri. It’s our lerature, ’s history books, but, somehow, generatnally, trans people, wh very rare and notable exceptns—Renée Richards, the tennis player; Jan Morris, the wrer—was somethg that you barely knew about; seemed extraordarily exceptnal. And then sudnly be part of our morn liv. How do you mark that historilly and socially?</strong></p><p class="paywall">So first I want to challenge that a ltle b. There’s a lot of documentatn of people livg as the oppose sex var historil perds. There’s a lot of art pictg —pecially the young woman who drs as a man and go to war. This is a plot that we see so many different cultur.</p><p class="paywall">Is a woman who liv her life—a person assigned female at birth, our morn language—who liv their entire life as a man, marri a woman, and is disvered to have unexpected genalia after ath, is that a transgenr person? That’s an tertg qutn, bee if they weren’t lled a transgenr person, maybe we don’t have a right to ll them a transgenr person 2023.</p><p class="paywall">So part of is not dissiar to homosexualy, which was somethg that existed but wasn’t talked about, and then, all of a sudn, was out the open this untry the late sixti, early seventi. It’s also different. Bee there’s no—and this is where we start gettg to so much trouble wh journalistic verage—bee is plaly knowable that so many more people, pecially young people, are intifyg as transgenr than were even ten years ago, even five years ago. The easit way to try to wrap your md around is to pretend that beg transgenr is aga somethg stable, that beg transgenr today is exactly the same thg as beg transgenr twenty years ago, and that we n, say, distguish om beg homosexual. But we n’t. Beg transgenr today is different om beg transgenr twenty years ago. Beg transgenr a society that unrstands that some people are transgenr is fundamentally different om beg transgenr a society that don’t unrstand.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>And your own life that’s the se?</strong></p><p class="paywall">Absolutely. I remember gettg on my bike Manhattan, maybe four or five years ago, and sudnly realizg that this sense that I am unregnizable, untelligible to the world which I live, was gone. I would bike down the Hudson River Greenway, and people would see a transgenr, or genr-nonnformg, person, ridg down the Hudson River Greenway. And maybe there would still be children tuggg their parents’ sleev and sayg, Is that a man or a woman? But fewer. And the parent would probably be able to say, “Well, that’s probably a transgenr person.”</p><div data-attr-viewport-monor="le-recirc" class="le-recirc-wrapper le-recirc-observer-target-4 viewport-monor-anchor"></div><p class="paywall"><strong>Bee the society has changed.</strong></p><p class="paywall">Bee the society has changed, yeah. I haven’t changed that much appearance my life. But, to my fifti, I was somebody who was untelligible to the world. Sudnly, that was no longer the se.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>Masha, whether ’s the tumult at the New York <em>Tim</em> about s verage of trans issu, or at <a href=">Netflix about Dave Chappelle</a> and his edy, to say nothg of the polil world, there are so many ways that make clear that this is a difficult topic for people to talk about. How would you approach talkg about trans people? What is the state of the nversatn? Where are we? Why is so ght and so often paful?</strong></p><p class="paywall">I thk ’s so paful and so ght bee is very difficult, discsg transns, verg transns, to avoid engagg wh the argument about whether trans people actually exist or have the right to exist. That is eply paful to trans people—and, I would image, to people who love trans people. That’s actually somethg that should be off lims. But is very hard, bee, for example, <a href=">Ey Bazelon’s excellent piece</a> the New York <em>Tim Magaze</em> last summer about the battle over transgenr treatment, there’s a [paraphrased] quote om Andrew Sullivan, the nservative gay journalist, who says, Well, maybe the people would’ve been gay—implyg they’re really gay and not really transgenr. That really clearly veers to the terrory of sayg “The people don’t exist. They’re not who they say they are.” So that’s why ’s so paful.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>So you’re sayg that Ey Bazelon should not have referenced Andrew Sullivan on that? I thk was a paraphrase of Sullivan rather than a quotatn.</strong></p><p class="paywall">I wouldn’t have. I thk that piece would’ve been even better whout that. As journalists, we’re not unr obligatn to quote every sgle view on an issue. I thk we have the right to exclu the view that somebody’s not who they say they are.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>I thk ’s even te, Masha—rrect me if I’m wrong—that even you, as a trans person, wrg about trans issu, have not ped gettg whacked.</strong></p><p class="paywall">Absolutely. Y, I was ncelled by trans Twter once.</p><div data-attr-viewport-monor="le-recirc" class="le-recirc-wrapper le-recirc-observer-target-5 viewport-monor-anchor"></div><p class="paywall"><strong>What happened?</strong></p><p class="paywall">This is another reason why ’s so difficult. Different trans people have vastly different experienc of beg trans. I had a whole life as a female person. Not only that, I rried a pregnancy to term and gave birth and breast-fed, and then, years later, cut off those breasts and am enjoyg the effects of that. I didn’t start my transn until the age of fifty. I have talked about as a seri of choic that I’ve ma. For a lot of people—and this is also te when we talk about sexualy for a lot of people— really, tly never feels like a choice. It feels like an existential issue, that there is a sgle te self. And that sgle-te-self narrative kd of domat the trans si of the ntroversy around verage of trans issu. I thk wrongly so. I thk ’s one way of livg and experiencg life as a trans person.</p></div></div></div></div><div data-ttid="RowWrapper" class="RowWrapper-UmqTg HEhan full-bleed-ad row-mid-ntent-ad"><div class="StickyMidContentAdWrapper-fSBzwl drzyIa ad-stickymidntent"><div class="AdWrapper-dQtivb fZrssQ ad ad--mid-ntent should-hold-space"><div class="ad__slot ad__slot--mid-ntent" data-no-id="1dc8hh"></div></div></div></div><div class="GridWrapper-cAzTTK eRggVV grid grid-margs grid-ems-0 ArticlePageChunksGrid-hfxa bDFJoo"><div class="GridItem-buujkM kHPPIF grid--em"><div class="BodyWrapper-kufPGa bDyAMU body body__ntaer article__body" data-journey-hook="client-ntent" data-ttid="BodyWrapper"><div class="body__ner-ntaer"><p class="paywall">I’m really ncerned about a lot of the cricism of the verage of transns, bee, even though I’m very unhappy wh a lot of the verage, I thk that cricizg on the grounds that there’s too much of is wrong and kd of dangero. The argument generally go: There’s so few trans people, why are you obssed wh them? Well, I’m old enough to have been an <em class="small">AIDS</em> journalist, and I remember when the New York <em>Tim</em> wasn’t verg <em class="small">AIDS</em> bee there were so few people affected by . That’s a crazy reason not to ver somethg! Trans issu are absolutely newsworthy, bee ’s new. In the sense that the prevalence of people who intify as trans is new, ’s lerally news. Republins are makg polil hay about —that’s news.</p><p class="paywall">Most tertgly—and this is where we get to why ’s so difficult—beg trans is unlike anythg else. Beg trans is not a medil ndn, but marri you for life to the medil system. It almost always—not always—volv some kd of medil terventn. How do we thk about that? How do we thk about the way that people make cisns? Both sis of the bate are really terted the issue of regret, and look at regret and transn as a measure of the rightns or wrongns of particular approach to trans treatment. I hate g the word “treatment.” I’m always stumblg over bee ’s not actually treatment, but is treatment. But ’s not a medil ndn. One si, pecially the opponents of childhood medil terventn for trans-intified kids, say that many of them go on to have regrets and transn. Proponents say, No, very few of them have regret. I say, Wa a send, kids and their parents, pecially teen-agers, make a huge number of cisns that have lifelong implitns and are likely to rult regret.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>For example?</strong></p><p class="paywall">For example, takg out huge stunt loans to go to llege and beg saddled wh them for life. For example, jog R.O.T.C. and beg part of the ary for life.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>But wa—is that really parable?</strong></p><p class="paywall">For example, startg to take antiprsants, or other medil treatments. I teach llege. Fully half of my stunts are on some kd of lifelong medil treatment that eher their parents or they and their parents together cid to m to when they were kids or teen-agers. It’s not that different—though, no, not the same. And this is where verage is so difficult, bee a lot of trans people, beg unrstandably offend or hurt by some parisons, say, Don’t pare. But the only way we as humans create meang is that we pare one thg to another and say, O.K., ’s like this some ways, and unlike some other ways.</p><div data-attr-viewport-monor="le-recirc" class="le-recirc-wrapper le-recirc-observer-target-6 viewport-monor-anchor"></div><p class="paywall">But back to the issue of regret: Wouldn’t be wonrful if we uld thk of transn as a lifelong optn? Some people transn more than once. Some people transn om female to male, and then transn om male to female, and then maybe transn aga. That don’t tell that their first transn was wrong any more than my livg as a woman and beg pregnant and havg children was wrong. Although I’m sure I would also have lived a very happy life had I had the chance to transn at twenty.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>How much do you re about eptns of nversatn and Twter furor when to, say, J. K. Rowlg or Dave Chappelle? Are the important moments the velopment of the way we talk about trans people?</strong></p><p class="paywall">Oh. I’m gog to get myself to so much trouble. Twter furor is not generally a eful tool for cultural sense-makg. Dave Chappelle, to my md, is fascatg. I’ve watched, I thk, all or most of his trans jok recently bee I need to discs them wh somebody, and I found them brilliant and radil. The way, for example, he talks about bathroom bills is que credible. So basilly the pot that I heard him makg was that he would rather share the bathroom wh a man wh a vaga than a woman wh a penis. That is a pletely next-level, trans-acceptg kd of humor. And then I was speakg to a very proment trans woman wrer who was so upset that I liked the Dave Chappelle special bee all she heard him say was that her vaga was an Impossible Burger. And I n unrstand that. I mean, I thought that was funny, but I also didn’t take personally. If we uld s down and discs the thgs, pecially wh Dave Chappelle, I thk that would move the nversatn forward.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>One of the symptoms of the newns and the disfort among a lot of people wh this entire subject is stumblg on pronouns. A uple of years ago, you tweeted, “I avoid the topic of pronouns for a while, but when my new book was g out, seemed I had to make a cisn about self-prentatn. I am trans, nonbary, so I asked to be referred to as ‘they.’ It’s been an stctive few weeks.” How was stctive?</strong></p><p class="paywall">So bee I’m nonbary, I for years said, “Call me they, he, she—but I prefer they.” And so this one wrer was wrg about my book and wrote to me, “I cid to e she bee was more elegant,” I thk he said. Or “easier” or somethg.</p></div></div></div></div><div data-ttid="RowWrapper" class="RowWrapper-UmqTg HEhan full-bleed-ad row-mid-ntent-ad"><div class="StickyMidContentAdWrapper-fSBzwl drzyIa ad-stickymidntent"><div class="AdWrapper-dQtivb fZrssQ ad ad--mid-ntent should-hold-space"><div class="ad__slot ad__slot--mid-ntent" data-no-id="7gan3g"></div></div></div></div><div class="GridWrapper-cAzTTK eRggVV grid grid-margs grid-ems-0 ArticlePageChunksGrid-hfxa bDFJoo"><div class="GridItem-buujkM kHPPIF grid--em"><div class="BodyWrapper-kufPGa bDyAMU body body__ntaer article__body" data-journey-hook="client-ntent" data-ttid="BodyWrapper"><div class="body__ner-ntaer"><p class="paywall"><strong>Easier on him.</strong></p><p class="paywall">And I thought, You know what? This was not meant to be for your nvenience. I also thought that there are some thgs that I n do—and I’ve always done this both as a queer person and now as a trans person—when I have a chance to sist on somethg, bee I have promence as a journalist and a wrer, that’ll probably help some eighteen-year-old somewhere who has a lot of trouble sistg and beg lled they/them. I may re about ls than the eighteen-year-old, but I have more power to enforce .</p><p class="paywall"><strong>We’ve been talkg about thgs that I sense you thk are of send-orr importance, when to Dave Chappelle or J. K. Rowlg. What’s the most important thg right now? What are the issu when to trans people that are most urgent?</strong></p><div data-attr-viewport-monor="le-recirc" class="le-recirc-wrapper le-recirc-observer-target-7 viewport-monor-anchor"></div><p class="paywall">I thk the [anti-trans] bills around the untry are absolutely, ccially important. And part of what mak me thk that is that I have seen—not jt Rsia but, say, Hungary, and Poland—the attacks on L.G.B.T. people, and attacks on what [the attackers] ll “genr iology.”</p><p class="paywall"><strong>Which is what?</strong></p><p class="paywall">Genr iology is the spectre of a totalarian regime that will enforce genr fluidy. Bt as I n terpret . But genr iology is a term that appears Brazil, and <a href=">Hungary</a>, and Rsia. It is heavily weaponized by tocrats. I don’t know if you remember, some years ago, there was footage of Judh Butler beg attacked, I thk, at an airport Brazil [ 2017]. They were attacked by some person. There was some prott wh a plard sayg “Down wh your genr iology.” That was, I thk, the first time I heard the term.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>You speak of Brazil, Rsia, Hungary, but let’s move closer to home. At <em class="small">CPAC</em>, Michael Knowl om the Daily Wire ma a speech llg for the “eraditn” of what he lled transgenrism. And he then had to clarify that was not a ll to eradite trans people as such, but an iology of transgenrism. Is there any distctn?</strong></p><p class="paywall">No, of urse there’s no distctn. And that’s why I started wh Rsia. I remember, back when I was stupid, about twelve years ago, seeg that there was some regnal bill to outlaw L.G.B.T. propaganda and thkg was ridiculo and wouldn’t apply to me. And then, two years later, I was on the n om Rsia, bee they were actually g after my kids.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>As I rell, somebody the Rsian legislature ma specific mentn of you.</strong></p><p class="paywall">Correct. It was a polician named Valy Milonov who was at the foreont of fightg the L.G.B.T. surge, who said that all Amerins want to do is adopt Rsian orphans and raise them perverted fai “like Masha Gsen’s.” Which was basilly a sign to me that I had to get my adopted son out of the untry, which also meant I had to leave the untry. When I see that transgenr re for adults is likely to bee illegal some stat, then I know that my ttosterone New York is probably not as safe as I thk is.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>Last week, both Mississippi and Tennsee banned genr-affirmg health re for trans youth. When we talk about genr-affirmg re, let’s be clear: what specifilly are we talkg about, there or anywhere?</strong></p><div data-attr-viewport-monor="le-recirc" class="le-recirc-wrapper le-recirc-observer-target-8 viewport-monor-anchor"></div><p class="paywall">This is actually another topic where I thk that cricism of the journalism is misguid, bee some of the cricism of the journalism has been: Don’t qutn standards of re. Well, is our job as journalists to qutn standards of re. Journalists should absolutely qutn standards of re. And there’s some legimate ntroversy about standards of re for trans youth. What’s pletely unntroversial is social transn. What’s largely unntroversial is—</p><p class="paywall"><strong>By social transn, you mean?</strong></p><p class="paywall">I mean livg as the genr that the person intifi as; fully changg nam, changg pronouns, et cetera. What’s not terribly ntroversial is hormone treatment young people who have gone through puberty. And what is somewhat ntroversial is puberty blockers, which are many plac the standard of re. Puberty blockers are exactly what they sound like; they lay puberty. Certaly, people’s experience is that, if they don’t go through the puberty of the sex wh which they don’t intify—[if] they don’t grow breasts, or they don’t grow hair and tticl—then ’ll be much easier to transn when they start receivg hormone treatment. There are some studi that pot to potential risks of long-term—more than a year or so—e of puberty blockers. That is absolutely a legimate topic of discsn. But, of urse, ’s bee very difficult to ver bee of bills Texas, Mississippi, Florida, Arkansas, and other stat that lump all of the treatments the same bucket, and seek to outlaw, or have already outlawed, all of them.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>Where do surgery e ?</strong></p><p class="paywall">Surgery is very, very rarely somethg that people unr eighteen have.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>I ask bee seems to me that, when I listen to the rhetoric of the right, you would thk that surgery on very young people whout parents knowg is somehow sweepg the untry.</strong></p><p class="paywall">As far as I know, ’s not a thg.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>Why do surance pani equently require psychologil evaluatn, sometim om multiple sourc, to rroborate the need for genr-affirmg re, when psychologil evaluatn is not required for parable forms of medice and procr non-trans people?</strong></p></div></div></div></div><div data-ttid="RowWrapper" class="RowWrapper-UmqTg HEhan full-bleed-ad row-mid-ntent-ad"><div class="StickyMidContentAdWrapper-fSBzwl drzyIa ad-stickymidntent"><div class="AdWrapper-dQtivb fZrssQ ad ad--mid-ntent should-hold-space"><div class="ad__slot ad__slot--mid-ntent" data-no-id="t02pad"></div></div></div></div><div class="GridWrapper-cAzTTK eRggVV grid grid-margs grid-ems-0 ArticlePageChunksGrid-hfxa bDFJoo"><div class="GridItem-buujkM kHPPIF grid--em"><div class="BodyWrapper-kufPGa bDyAMU body body__ntaer article__body" data-journey-hook="client-ntent" data-ttid="BodyWrapper"><div class="body__ner-ntaer"><p class="paywall">I’ll tell you more, David. When I was fifty-one and had top surgery and paid out of pocket for , I still had to get a letter om my physician and a psychiatrist.</p><div data-attr-viewport-monor="le-recirc" class="le-recirc-wrapper le-recirc-observer-target-9 viewport-monor-anchor"></div><p class="paywall"><strong>Masha, do you thk the left generally do a good job of speakg on trans issu a way that a broar public n unrstand? In other words, we’ve been talkg about <em class="small">CPAC</em>, we’ve been talkg about the Republin Party, Ron DeSantis, Tmp, and the rt. What about the other si of thgs?</strong></p><p class="paywall">I want to be genero about this bee—</p><p class="paywall"><strong>Why?</strong></p><p class="paywall">Well, bee I want to acknowledge the difficult suatn that we’re . I’m very trated wh both L.G.B.T.-activist anizatns and other proment advocy anizatns over the very rctive ways which they ame trans issu. For example, amg accs to genr-affirmg re for trans youth as a qutn of suici and survival. There’s an extremely high rate of suici risk among trans people general, but genr-affirmg re don’t actually seem to be the answer to the suici risk. Maybe more social acceptance is the answer. In general, the Democratic Party follows the lead of advocy anizatns, which is actually good. The blame is wh the advocy anizatns. But ’s very hard to blame the advocy anizatns for not beg plex and nuanced their rhetoric when the right is on such a rampage. So that’s why I want to be genero.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>Sure. We talked about the New York <em>Tim</em>. <em>The Atlantic</em> also sparked a lot of backlash 2018 over a ver article about transng [“<a href=">When Children Say They’re Trans</a>,” by Jse Sgal]. We touched on this earlier, but has the amount of verage that transng received the media been skewed? Has that altered your perceptn of how the prs is verg this general?</strong></p><p class="paywall">Yeah. I thk there’s way too much foc on transng. And what I thk that’s about, part, ’s almost like what San Sontag lled the sex exceptn, except ’s the genr exceptn. We normalize regret other areas of life. We do thgs and then we regret them. We have children and regret . All the time. It’s perfectly normal. [<em>Lghs.</em>]</p><p class="paywall"><strong>Speak for yourself! He quickly add.</strong></p><p class="paywall">But we thk that somethg so tastrophic happens to a person who transns. . . . There’s this book, om a few years ago, by Abigail Shrier, lled “Irreversible Damage: The Transgenr Craze Scg Our Dghters.” The ia is that you do somethg to yourself that you will never ga back. And particular she was talkg about girls makg the choice to forfe beg able to bear children. Which, y, is a big thg, but also not a unique thg, not a life-g thg, necsarily. But we do talk about as though, of all the loss a person n have their life, this is one that we n’t make up for.</p><div data-attr-viewport-monor="le-recirc" class="le-recirc-wrapper le-recirc-observer-target-10 viewport-monor-anchor"></div><p class="paywall"><strong>What are the biggt mistak that well-meang people make when they talk about trans people?</strong></p><p class="paywall">I thk probably the biggt mistake is not regnizg that there are different ias about transns wh the trans muny. Probably different trans muni. Certaly different experienc of transns. That, for some people, ’s an sential part of themselv. Some people are tly bary. Some people are tly nonbary. Some people are still negotiatn wh their inty.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>What do you hope for our own publitn as we move forward and we wre about this, grapple wh this, thk about this? What should we be dog, and how do we get better?</strong></p><p class="paywall">I thk one thg that I’m really happy to have been able to do is jt wre about trans people as though there’s nothg unual about trans people.</p><p class="paywall"><strong>Where the transns is almost cintal to what you’re wrg.</strong></p><p class="paywall">Exactly. We have to wa to this ntroversy, which do exist. Some of the cricism of trans verage the <em>Tim</em> and elsewhere has said, Oh, ’s a manufactured culture war. Well, of urse. All culture wars are manufactured, but this one is happeng. So we have to figure out a way to ver , I thk, a plited way. ♦</p></div></div></div></div></div><div class="GridWrapper-cAzTTK eRggVV grid grid-margs grid-ems-0 PaywallInleBarrierWhWrapperGrid-fyrGfS jyGBoi"><div class="GridItem-buujkM kHPPIF grid--em"><div class="body body__le-barrier article__body article__body--grid-margs"><div class="ntaer ntaer--body"><div class="ntaer--body-ner"><asi class="PaywallInleBarrierWrapper-iBnuqk lfXXa-D" data-ttid="PaywallInleBarrierWrapper"><div class="ConsumerMarketgUnThemedWrapper-iUTMTf jssHut nsumer-marketg-un nsumer-marketg-un--paywall-le-barrier" role="prentatn" aria-live="pole" aria-hidn="te"><div class="nsumer-marketg-un__slot nsumer-marketg-un__slot--paywall-le-barrier"></div><div class="journey-un"></div></div></asi></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="GridWrapper-cAzTTK eRggVV grid grid-margs grid-ems-0 ContentWrapperGrid-fvkmBv jfHKjr"><div class="GridItem-buujkM kHPPIF grid--em"><div class="body body__ntaer"><div class="ntaer ntaer--body"><div class="ntaer--body-ner"></div></div></div></div></div></div></article><div class="ContentFooterWrapper-jVNdRG bGJnrW ArticlePageContentFooterGrid-ccsXYy fzwwkW article-body__footer"><div data-ttid="RowWrapper" class="RowWrapper-UmqTg HEhan"><div class="GridWrapper-cAzTTK eRggVV grid grid-margs grid-ems-0"><div class="GridItem-buujkM kHPPIF grid--em"><div class="LkStackWrapper-NFLYw kgtXXB lkstack" data-ttid="LkStack"><div class="SectnTleRoot-dBGvdq kjAxEG LkStackHear-lKjbE hejl lk-stack--headg" data-ttid="SectnTle"><h2 class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ SectnTleHed-dKqZet dxqEAa dqtvfu jttyjJ">More New Yorker Conversatns</h2></div><div class="LkStackContent-jyKicS gPhyME"><ul class="LkStackList-gGcjdZ dnMwpz"><li class="LkStackBullet-kQRqul iQHwiG lk-stack--lk-em" data-ttid="LkStackBullet"><div><p>Eva Longoria brgs <a href="/culture/the-new-yorker-terview/eva-longoria-brgs-lato-life-to-the-screen" class="InternalLkEmbedWrapper-fhjgJW cQLtaa">Lato life to the screen</a>.</p></div></li><li class="LkStackBullet-kQRqul iQHwiG lk-stack--lk-em" data-ttid="LkStackBullet"><div><p><a href="/culture/the-new-yorker-terview/harvey-karp-knows-how-to-make-babi-happy" class="InternalLkEmbedWrapper-fhjgJW cQLtaa">Harvey Karp</a> knows how to make babi happy.</p></div></li><li class="LkStackBullet-kQRqul iQHwiG lk-stack--lk-em" data-ttid="LkStackBullet"><div><p>Tx explas why <a href="/culture/the-new-yorker-terview/tx-explas-why-were-datg-all-wrong" class="InternalLkEmbedWrapper-fhjgJW cQLtaa">we’re datg all wrong</a>.</p></div></li><li class="LkStackBullet-kQRqul iQHwiG lk-stack--lk-em" data-ttid="LkStackBullet"><div><p>Ken Jenngs has some <a href="/culture/the-new-yorker-terview/ken-jenngs-has-some-qutns-about-ath" class="InternalLkEmbedWrapper-fhjgJW cQLtaa">qutns about ath</a>.</p></div></li><li class="LkStackBullet-kQRqul iQHwiG lk-stack--lk-em" data-ttid="LkStackBullet"><div><p>Llie Marmon Silko <a href="/culture/the-new-yorker-terview/llie-marmon-silko-saw--g" class="InternalLkEmbedWrapper-fhjgJW cQLtaa">saw g</a>.</p></div></li><li class="LkStackBullet-kQRqul iQHwiG lk-stack--lk-em" data-ttid="LkStackBullet"><div><p>Tom Hanks on the rewards and <a href="/culture/the-new-yorker-terview/tom-hanks-on-the-rewards-and-vic-realy-of-makg-movi" class="InternalLkEmbedWrapper-fhjgJW cQLtaa">“vic realy” of makg movi</a>.</p></div></li></ul><div class="LkStackFooter-KfRyO ebnmps lk-stack--footer"><div><p><a href=">Sign up</a> for our daily newsletter to receive the bt stori om <em>The New Yorker</em>.</p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div data-ttid="RowWrapper" class="RowWrapper-UmqTg HEhan"><div class="GridWrapper-cAzTTK eRggVV grid grid-margs grid-ems-0"><div class="GridItem-buujkM kHPPIF grid--em"><div class="ContributorsWrapper-eNpWFu GWFsc ntributors" data-ttid="Contributors"><div class="ContributorBWrapper-bnVHbt gMon"><div class="ContributorBAvatar-bIGTqf eMWbvj"><a href="/ntributors/david-remnick"><span class="SpanWrapper-umhxW jvZaPI rponsive-asset"><picture class="RponsiveImagePicture-cWuUZO dUOtEa rponsive-image"><source media="(max-width: 767px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w" siz="100vw"/><source media="(m-width: 768px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w" siz="100vw"/><img alt="" class="RponsiveImageContaer-eybHBd fptoWY rponsive-image__image" src="></picture></span></a></div><div class="ContributorBContent-ubQdr jZTSSi"><div class="ContributorBHear-ledood XOIEx"></div><div class="ContributorBB-fBolsO giFhKz"><a href="/ntributors/david-remnick">David Remnick</a> has been the edor of The New Yorker sce 1998 and a staff wrer sce 1992. He is the thor of seven books; the most recent is “<a href=">Holdg the Note</a>,” a llectn of his profil of micians.</div><div class="ContributorBFooter-brqDlv ezUmSv"></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div data-ttid="RowWrapper" class="RowWrapper-UmqTg HEhan"><div class="GridWrapper-cAzTTK eRggVV grid grid-margs grid-ems-0"><div class="GridItem-buujkM kHPPIF grid--em"><div data-ttid="TagCloudWrapper" class="TagCloudWrapper-gGgndx ctyZyK ContentFooterTagCloud-krQmRG ZLGh"><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ TagCloudSectnHear-cOforY iUEiRd bPyAoD kQQRmu">More:</span><a href="/tag/masha-gsen" class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ BaseLk-eNWuiM TagCloudLk-kvjZFu iUEiRd ggMZaT gFob hIhJOI"><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ TagCloudName-eAUnLd iUEiRd gwIVBQ bUkXwu">Masha Gsen</span></a><a href="/tag/lgbtq-rights" class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ BaseLk-eNWuiM TagCloudLk-kvjZFu iUEiRd ggMZaT gFob hIhJOI"><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ TagCloudName-eAUnLd iUEiRd gwIVBQ bUkXwu">L.G.B.T.Q. 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class="RponsiveImagePicture-cWuUZO dUOtEa SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image rponsive-image"><noscript><source media="(max-width: 767px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w, 640w" siz="100vw"/><source media="(m-width: 768px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w" siz="100vw"/><img alt="We Should All Be Drkg Spanish Vermouth" class="RponsiveImageContaer-eybHBd fptoWY rponsive-image__image" src="></noscript></picture></div></div></span></a></div><div class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ SummaryItemDek-CRfsi iUEiRd jxOIpm cPtisA summary-em__k">A fortified we wh guts and spe and teeth and claws, <em>vermut</em> is an ial antidote to summer’s ambient fatigue.</div><div class="SummaryItemByleWrapper-boCfbi hYsZi summary-em__byle-date-in"><div class="SummaryItemBaseByle-fFbXkY cgDBtc summary-em__byle"><div class="summary-em__byle__ntent"><div data-ttid="BylWrapper" class="BylWrapper-KIudk irTIfE byl"><p class="ByleWrapper-jWHrLH dSEWiO byle byl__byle" data-ttid="ByleWrapper" 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data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" target="_self"><span class="SpanWrapper-umhxW kGxnNB rponsive-asset SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image"><div data-tt="aspect-rat-ntaer" class="AspectRatContaer-bJHpJz jMoLpX"><div class="aspect-rat--overlay-ntaer"><picture class="RponsiveImagePicture-cWuUZO dUOtEa SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image rponsive-image"><noscript><source media="(max-width: 767px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w, 640w" siz="100vw"/><source media="(m-width: 768px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w" siz="100vw"/><img alt="Matthew Wong Turned Lonels Into a Landspe" class="RponsiveImageContaer-eybHBd fptoWY rponsive-image__image" src="></noscript></picture></div></div></span></a></div><div class="SummaryItemContent-eiDYMl ldWYvC summary-em__ntent"><div class="RubricWrapper-dKmCNX kImuKS bric bric--disvery SummaryItemRubric-dguGKN fYiFyD summary-em__bric"><span class="RubricName-fVtemz cLxcNi">The Art World</span></div><a class="SummaryItemHedLk-civM cZPaWG summary-em-trackg__hed-lk summary-em__hed-lk" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-hed-2" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" href=" target="_self"><div class="SummaryItemHedBase-hiFYpQ iIjKeM summary-em__hed" data-ttid="SummaryItemHed">Matthew Wong Turned Lonels Into a Landspe</div></a><div class="SummaryItemAssetContaer-gwhFFH VOyg summary-em__asset-ntaer"><a class="SummaryItemImageLk-dshqxb USLvL summary-em__image-lk summary-em-trackg__image-lk" href=" aria-hidn="te" tabx="-1" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-image-2" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" target="_self"><span class="SpanWrapper-umhxW kGxnNB rponsive-asset SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image"><div data-tt="aspect-rat-ntaer" class="AspectRatContaer-bJHpJz jMoLpX"><div class="aspect-rat--overlay-ntaer"><picture class="RponsiveImagePicture-cWuUZO dUOtEa SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image rponsive-image"><noscript><source media="(max-width: 767px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w, 640w" siz="100vw"/><source media="(m-width: 768px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w" siz="100vw"/><img alt="Matthew Wong Turned Lonels Into a Landspe" class="RponsiveImageContaer-eybHBd fptoWY rponsive-image__image" src="></noscript></picture></div></div></span></a></div><div class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ SummaryItemDek-CRfsi iUEiRd jxOIpm cPtisA summary-em__k">In “The Realm of Appearanc,” the artist’s first mm retrospective, the distctn between si and outsi is slowly broken down.</div><div class="SummaryItemByleWrapper-boCfbi hYsZi summary-em__byle-date-in"><div class="SummaryItemBaseByle-fFbXkY cgDBtc summary-em__byle"><div class="summary-em__byle__ntent"><div data-ttid="BylWrapper" class="BylWrapper-KIudk irTIfE byl"><p class="ByleWrapper-jWHrLH dSEWiO byle byl__byle" data-ttid="ByleWrapper" emProp="thor" emType="><span emProp="name" class="ByleNamWrapper-jbHncj fuDQVo"><span data-ttid="ByleName" class="ByleName-kwmrLn cYaBaU byle__name"><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ BylePreamble-iJolpQ iUEiRd jslZfG gnILss byle__preamble">By </span>Jackson Arn</span></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="SummaryItemWrapper-iwvBff hlYhBH summary-em summary-em--ARTICLE summary-em--no-in summary-em--text-align-left summary-em--layout-placement-text-below-sktop-only summary-em--layout-posn-image-right summary-em--layout-proportns-33-66 summary-em--si-by-si-align-center summary-em--si-by-si-image-right-mobile-false summary-em--standard SummaryCollectnGridSummaryItem-WColm fvDIAb" role="button" tabx="0"><div class="SummaryItemAssetContaer-gwhFFH VOyg summary-em__asset-ntaer"><a class="SummaryItemImageLk-dshqxb USLvL summary-em__image-lk summary-em-trackg__image-lk" href=" aria-hidn="te" tabx="-1" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-image-3" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" target="_self"><span class="SpanWrapper-umhxW kGxnNB rponsive-asset SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image"><div data-tt="aspect-rat-ntaer" class="AspectRatContaer-bJHpJz jMoLpX"><div class="aspect-rat--overlay-ntaer"><picture class="RponsiveImagePicture-cWuUZO dUOtEa SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image rponsive-image"><noscript><source media="(max-width: 767px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w, 640w" siz="100vw"/><source media="(m-width: 768px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w" siz="100vw"/><img alt="The Master Fabulist of Amerin Fictn" class="RponsiveImageContaer-eybHBd fptoWY rponsive-image__image" src="></noscript></picture></div></div></span></a></div><div class="SummaryItemContent-eiDYMl ldWYvC summary-em__ntent"><div class="RubricWrapper-dKmCNX kImuKS bric bric--disvery SummaryItemRubric-dguGKN fYiFyD summary-em__bric"><span class="RubricName-fVtemz cLxcNi">Books</span></div><a class="SummaryItemHedLk-civM cZPaWG summary-em-trackg__hed-lk summary-em__hed-lk" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-hed-3" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" href=" target="_self"><div class="SummaryItemHedBase-hiFYpQ iIjKeM summary-em__hed" data-ttid="SummaryItemHed">The Master Fabulist of Amerin Fictn</div></a><div class="SummaryItemAssetContaer-gwhFFH VOyg summary-em__asset-ntaer"><a class="SummaryItemImageLk-dshqxb USLvL summary-em__image-lk summary-em-trackg__image-lk" href=" aria-hidn="te" tabx="-1" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-image-3" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" target="_self"><span class="SpanWrapper-umhxW kGxnNB rponsive-asset SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image"><div data-tt="aspect-rat-ntaer" class="AspectRatContaer-bJHpJz jMoLpX"><div class="aspect-rat--overlay-ntaer"><picture class="RponsiveImagePicture-cWuUZO dUOtEa SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image rponsive-image"><noscript><source media="(max-width: 767px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w, 640w" siz="100vw"/><source media="(m-width: 768px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w" siz="100vw"/><img alt="The Master Fabulist of Amerin Fictn" class="RponsiveImageContaer-eybHBd fptoWY rponsive-image__image" src="></noscript></picture></div></div></span></a></div><div class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ SummaryItemDek-CRfsi iUEiRd jxOIpm cPtisA summary-em__k">In “Disptns,” a new llectn of stori, Steven Millhser revaliz the small-town tale, evokg the magil, the mundane, and the extravagantly madp.</div><div class="SummaryItemByleWrapper-boCfbi hYsZi summary-em__byle-date-in"><div class="SummaryItemBaseByle-fFbXkY cgDBtc summary-em__byle"><div class="summary-em__byle__ntent"><div data-ttid="BylWrapper" class="BylWrapper-KIudk irTIfE byl"><p class="ByleWrapper-jWHrLH dSEWiO byle byl__byle" data-ttid="ByleWrapper" emProp="thor" emType="><span emProp="name" class="ByleNamWrapper-jbHncj fuDQVo"><span data-ttid="ByleName" class="ByleName-kwmrLn cYaBaU byle__name"><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ BylePreamble-iJolpQ iUEiRd jslZfG gnILss byle__preamble">By </span>Charl McGrath</span></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="SummaryItemWrapper-iwvBff hlYhBH summary-em summary-em--ARTICLE summary-em--no-in summary-em--text-align-left summary-em--layout-placement-text-below-sktop-only summary-em--layout-posn-image-right summary-em--layout-proportns-33-66 summary-em--si-by-si-align-center summary-em--si-by-si-image-right-mobile-false summary-em--standard SummaryCollectnGridSummaryItem-WColm fvDIAb" role="button" tabx="0"><div class="SummaryItemAssetContaer-gwhFFH VOyg summary-em__asset-ntaer"><a class="SummaryItemImageLk-dshqxb USLvL summary-em__image-lk summary-em-trackg__image-lk" href=" aria-hidn="te" tabx="-1" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-image-4" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" target="_self"><span class="SpanWrapper-umhxW kGxnNB rponsive-asset SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image"><div data-tt="aspect-rat-ntaer" class="AspectRatContaer-bJHpJz jMoLpX"><div class="aspect-rat--overlay-ntaer"><picture class="RponsiveImagePicture-cWuUZO dUOtEa SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image rponsive-image"><noscript><source media="(max-width: 767px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w, 640w" siz="100vw"/><source media="(m-width: 768px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w" siz="100vw"/><img alt="A Once--a-Lifetime Summer Spectacle" class="RponsiveImageContaer-eybHBd fptoWY rponsive-image__image" src="></noscript></picture></div></div></span></a></div><div class="SummaryItemContent-eiDYMl ldWYvC summary-em__ntent"><div class="RubricWrapper-dKmCNX kImuKS bric bric--disvery SummaryItemRubric-dguGKN fYiFyD summary-em__bric"><span class="RubricName-fVtemz cLxcNi">Daily Shouts</span></div><a class="SummaryItemHedLk-civM cZPaWG summary-em-trackg__hed-lk summary-em__hed-lk" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-hed-4" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" href=" target="_self"><div class="SummaryItemHedBase-hiFYpQ iIjKeM summary-em__hed" data-ttid="SummaryItemHed">A Once--a-Lifetime Summer Spectacle</div></a><div class="SummaryItemAssetContaer-gwhFFH VOyg summary-em__asset-ntaer"><a class="SummaryItemImageLk-dshqxb USLvL summary-em__image-lk summary-em-trackg__image-lk" href=" aria-hidn="te" tabx="-1" data-ponent-type="recirc-river" data-recirc-id="em-image-4" data-recirc-pattern="summary-em" target="_self"><span class="SpanWrapper-umhxW kGxnNB rponsive-asset SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image"><div data-tt="aspect-rat-ntaer" class="AspectRatContaer-bJHpJz jMoLpX"><div class="aspect-rat--overlay-ntaer"><picture class="RponsiveImagePicture-cWuUZO dUOtEa SummaryItemRponsiveAsset-hjGIGg egpoQR summary-em__image rponsive-image"><noscript><source media="(max-width: 767px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w, 640w" siz="100vw"/><source media="(m-width: 768px)" srcSet=" 120w, 240w, 320w" siz="100vw"/><img alt="A Once--a-Lifetime Summer Spectacle" class="RponsiveImageContaer-eybHBd fptoWY rponsive-image__image" src="></noscript></picture></div></div></span></a></div><div class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ SummaryItemDek-CRfsi iUEiRd jxOIpm cPtisA summary-em__k">Nearly half of Amerins live wh five hundred of a lotn that is expected to have a clear view of an dictment of Donald Tmp this summer.</div><div class="SummaryItemByleWrapper-boCfbi hYsZi summary-em__byle-date-in"><div class="SummaryItemBaseByle-fFbXkY cgDBtc summary-em__byle"><div class="summary-em__byle__ntent"><div data-ttid="BylWrapper" class="BylWrapper-KIudk irTIfE byl"><p class="ByleWrapper-jWHrLH dSEWiO byle byl__byle" data-ttid="ByleWrapper" emProp="thor" emType="><span emProp="name" class="ByleNamWrapper-jbHncj fuDQVo"><span data-ttid="ByleName" class="ByleName-kwmrLn cYaBaU byle__name"><span class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ BylePreamble-iJolpQ iUEiRd jslZfG gnILss byle__preamble">By </span>Nathaniel Ste</span></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="AdWrapper-dQtivb fZrssQ 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